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  1. #91
    Circus Maximus Sarcasticus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    I am a different daughter to my INTP father than to my ESFJ mother I assure you. The same goes for my siblings, my aunts, my grandmother, my friends etc. It may sound complicated, even dishonest, but I assure you it is not. With different people, different facets of my own personality are embraced to create the most harmonious interaction. It is beyond critical analysis; it is completely natural. I find myself having to hold back from doing this too much. It's just too easy for me.
    I've noticed this too. It's natural for people in general to do this-- I have friends I interact with in a different ways-- but INFJs take it to a whole different level. To the point where I question what is the mask, and what is the real person.

    Sometimes it can leave me wondering where I stand with that person; what they really think and feel. It does feel manipulative or dishonest at times, even though I know instinctually that's not the case. And when I see the INFJ expose a more freewheeling, extroverted side of themselves in the presence of another person-- to the point where it seems completely out of character and outside of any prior reference point-- it makes me wonder why she was holding back in our one-on-one interactions.

  2. #92
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcasticus View Post
    I've noticed this too. It's natural for people in general to do this-- I have friends I interact with in a different ways-- but INFJs take it to a whole different level. To the point where I question what is the mask, and what is the real person.

    Sometimes it can leave me wondering where I stand with that person; what they really think and feel. It does feel manipulative or dishonest at times, even though I know instinctually that's not the case. And when I see the INFJ expose a more freewheeling, extroverted side of themselves in the presence of another person-- to the point where it seems completely out of character and outside of any prior reference point-- it makes me wonder why she was holding back in our one-on-one interactions.
    Identity is by necessity contextual. You are a different person when alone, when with family, when in the bed with your lover, when with strangers. Who we are is determined in large part by who we surround ourselves with. This is not disingenuous, merely one aspect of the flux which we LABEL self.

    There is really no being, only becoming. Every particle in us is in transition. Every time we eat, or void ourselves, or slough off skin or intestinal lining, we change. Everything is in motion. We are never the same person twice. Who we ARE is nothing more than a pattern of life which we have labeled for expediency. Everything is in flux.

    The same applies to personality. You are, in large part, what you think about. Consequently, I am confident that if I suddenly decided to change my personality I could do so. It would take creating new habits of mind, but I think this is what personality is, merely a habit that has taken root. It seems persistent only because we string our moments into days and our days into years, but each moment consists of periodic decisions and choices about how to perceive this reality and how to act and think.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  3. #93
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcasticus View Post
    I've noticed this too. It's natural for people in general to do this-- I have friends I interact with in a different ways-- but INFJs take it to a whole different level. To the point where I question what is the mask, and what is the real person.
    Make no mistake about it: they're all the real person...

  4. #94
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    There's something subtle too, that took me a long time to notice. INFJs notice what you respond to, and slowly encompass a personality that consists of those elements. If someone desires and responds to someone that is slightly giggly, they become more giggly. If someone responds to challenging and edgy humor, their humor starts to develop an edge. The degree of difference can be subtle or extreme, depending on the INFJ.
    Very true for me. Often times I also pick up speech patterns and accents which is weird considering I don't speak the other person's native language and there's no reason why I should automatically adopt their pattern beyond mirroring. Perhaps this is a way of making the other person feel at ease and maintaining the connection... Actually this may be why people think INFJ is romantically inclined when in reality they're not. It's the darn mirroring. An automatic response to being "nice" becomes misinterpreted as interest.

    Back on the mirroring, it also has a lot to do with expectations. If this is the way you expect me to act, then in some unconscious part of my mind I'll give it to you. An extreme sort of people pleasing behaviour?

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    the way yoga instructors just walk around and kind of tweak people. chart the course. send them in a slightly new direction. we prefer to walk on water when possible.

    we value being recognized more so for our perceptions than our extraverted qualities. our Ni ideas, interpretations, concepts, ideals, beliefs, atttitudes. it makes the extraverted aspect of our lives secondary to our introverted goals, dreams, and desires. we don't have internal judgment to hold on to as much as internal ideas. we are j and left-brained. our sense of self is more fluid and perceptual than judgment based. our integrity is in action, bc our beliefs are capable of so much constant adaptation and evolution, and the judgment to identify with is on the outside in the real world. eventually we have to let go of knowing/certainty of ourselves (for the Fe is outside of us and our control, is constantly changing and elusive and impossible to give account for) and just move more fluidly, very tao/the way/zen/judo/etc.
    A good description. For the most part we don't really know exactly who we are internally... at least not like an ISFJ. As Sky mentioned, we respond based on the context. It's how Fe makes decisions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcasticus View Post
    I've noticed this too. It's natural for people in general to do this-- I have friends I interact with in a different ways-- but INFJs take it to a whole different level. To the point where I question what is the mask, and what is the real person.

    Sometimes it can leave me wondering where I stand with that person; what they really think and feel. It does feel manipulative or dishonest at times, even though I know instinctually that's not the case. And when I see the INFJ expose a more freewheeling, extroverted side of themselves in the presence of another person-- to the point where it seems completely out of character and outside of any prior reference point-- it makes me wonder why she was holding back in our one-on-one interactions.
    Don't ask the INFJ, I don't know what is the mask and what's real. In a way the mask is real... or rather there's a multitude of masks that makes up a component of me. Again, zen fluidity sort of self that molds to fit the situation. I can't sit there and pin down what is "real" because everything is always evolving. To try and do so is simply unnatural. I guess you can say INFJs live for internal transformation. Although on the outside, INFJ behaviour can look rather inconsistent and thus be labeled "fake".

    As to your friend... I don't think she's holding back so much as she's not pick up the cues that tells her it's safe to let loose. Of course much of this happens unconsciously anyhow so if it's manipulation, she's also manipulated.
    My stuff (design & other junk) lives here: http://nnbox.ca

  5. #95
    violaine
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    It is all the real person, some people just get the surface level. I like to preserve harmony when I am getting to know someone or where I don't have much invested. (i.e. I tried to get to know someone and we never reached a meeting of the minds.) I don't tend to preserve harmony at the expense of a strongly held opinion or getting to the truth of something though.

    I tend to hold back for various reasons e.g. if I don't know someone well or if they themselves are reserved or wary. I also hold back with people who I perceive to be very critical or two-faced or close-minded. I will still try to get to know someone but the reveal will be much slower or not at all according to how our interactions proceed.

    It's not because I want the person's approval, though that could often be the case with INFJ. It's because I don't necessarily trust them to be accepting of me in my entirety and I prefer to keep myself to myself much of the time.

    I guess it's not so unusual. I can see how it could look disingenuous though doesn't feel that way. Ahh intimacy! The dance of trust.

  6. #96
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Identity is by necessity contextual. You are a different person when alone, when with family, when in the bed with your lover, when with strangers. Who we are is determined in large part by who we surround ourselves with. This is not disingenuous, merely one aspect of the flux which we LABEL self.

    There is really no being, only becoming. Every particle in us is in transition. Every time we eat, or void ourselves, or slough off skin or intestinal lining, we change. Everything is in motion. We are never the same person twice. Who we ARE is nothing more than a pattern of life which we have labeled for expediency. Everything is in flux.

    The same applies to personality. You are, in large part, what you think about. Consequently, I am confident that if I suddenly decided to change my personality I could do so. It would take creating new habits of mind, but I think this is what personality is, merely a habit that has taken root. It seems persistent only because we string our moments into days and our days into years, but each moment consists of periodic decisions and choices about how to perceive this reality and how to act and think.
    somewhat regimented deeply engrained habits, but habits nevertheless.

    and overall- a question of integration that is usually rooted in narrative techniques, dialogism (encountering otherness/resistance), and images of thought that occasionally blow up before our eyes in the somewhat discomforting process of disillusionment..

    i think dominant N types have more trouble with identification/self-identity than other types. always on the go, neither here nor there, weird liminality, on the way to/becoming. one group never encompasses everything, we are all made up of different cross-sections of the social weird intersecting at different points. moving points. the possibilities are endless, tho not entirely of our own accord/control. too much hybrdity everywhere to give a totalizing account of the self. and very very very aware of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Make no mistake about it: they're all the real person...
    that kind of acceptance requires a view of integration/personality patterns that is enormously complex. it's a lot to ask. all the different branches and possibility's occasional dead-ends of expression, action, choice, movement, etc. of course, unless you take a power-sander so big only god could wield it, and saw/sand off all the rough edges, it will never be smooth. always uprooted by moving ground, shifting fault lines, and situational contexts outside of the storyline. we know and accept this.

    Quote Originally Posted by sanveane View Post
    It's not because I want the person's approval, though that could often be the case with INFJ. It's because I don't necessarily trust them to be accepting of me in my entirety and I prefer to keep myself to myself much of the time.

    I guess it's not so unusual. I can see how it could look disingenuous though doesn't feel that way. Ahh intimacy! The dance of trust.
    this is a very subtle shift. when we get in touch with Fe we become more skilled at the art of omission. of why bother. of unnecessity. we are external judgers and identify with what we can do, where we can direct things, more so than identifying our own personal integrity on a huge complex of introverted judgments. we rely on situational ethics and situational expressions. finding a way to let go and embrace the stamplessness of authenticity and lack of notorized seal is important for us to have faith in ourselves and trust our instincts.

  7. #97
    Senior Member mwv6r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    the question itself is flawed. whereas isj types are fact-checkers, inj types are context checkers. we see the connections between everything. this is where we feel most at home, within the world of Ni.

    so it's not some gooey spiritual bullshit when i say this, but everything is meaningful. not profound or beautiful, but composed of millions and millions of tiny connections between things that allows us to turn a situation over like a snow globe or a rubix cube. we see how the situation is constructed, but could be constructed otherwise. when we are F types, we are especially sensitive to seeing how we fit into the situation, what it tells us about ourselves, how our desires reflect who we are and what we stand for.

    we can explore something intellectually, consider a new premise for thought, and be energized by thought to enter something in a very exploratory mindset. for me as an infj, this is always checked reaaaaallll fast by Fe, by doing damage to myself or others, the self of myself or the self of others. violence, not treating people as objects, meeting them on a self-to-self level or spending my time elsewhere. bc ultimately with Ni that's who i am. quality time engaging and engrossing and relating/sharing.

    even in the most pornographic stick-figure fantasies and the people you pass in the street, it always starts to become something more. or it is just so difficult to block out the more more more that everything is made up of and just get to an irreducible hollowed out place from which you can focus all your energies on your inferior function and your inferior function alone.

    the inferior Se makes us want to fuck and seduce and be seduced. goddamn wandering eyes. and consider teh premise of would it be ok, how would it work, should or shouldn't. but the stark reality for me is that such a process breaks down somewhat quickly, my own standards for context-passing, and self-relating are too much for me to be able to fuck a random stranger, or someone like a rat held by its tail at an arm's length distance.

    True, true. Even as I was typing my rhetorical question, "Can't INFJs have meaningless sex?" I was thinking to myself, "meaningless" isn't really the right word. INFJs are the ultimate "meaning-givers" / "meaning seekers." So, yes, everything has meaning to me of some kind. Meaning can be very contextual though, e.g., romance/sex outside of a committed relationship would have meaning to me in some form (e.g., I would have a sincere affection for the person and care about them), yet it would not carry the same significance as romance/sex within a serious relationship. I guess my point was simply that I bet many INFJs do date around / dabble in semi-casual (but still meaningful!) sex at some point, although my guess is that most of us don't do it for extended periods and with maybe the same, errr, enthusiasm as less sensitive types.

  8. #98
    meat popsicle r.a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    so it's not some gooey spiritual bullshit when i say this, but everything is meaningful. not profound or beautiful, but composed of millions and millions of tiny connections between things that allows us to turn a situation over like a snow globe or a rubix cube. we see how the situation is constructed, but could be constructed otherwise.
    +1

  9. #99
    Senior Member Lightyear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Make no mistake about it: they're all the real person...
    Yes! I find it extremely difficult to say or do something that I don't really mean (I hate having to behave in a fake way.) but still I can let all these different parts of my personality come out to play depending on whom I am talking to.

    Quote Originally Posted by sanveane View Post
    It is all the real person, some people just get the surface level. I like to preserve harmony when I am getting to know someone or where I don't have much invested. (i.e. I tried to get to know someone and we never reached a meeting of the minds.) I don't tend to preserve harmony at the expense of a strongly held opinion or getting to the truth of something though.

    I tend to hold back for various reasons e.g. if I don't know someone well or if they themselves are reserved or wary. I also hold back with people who I perceive to be very critical or two-faced or close-minded. I will still try to get to know someone but the reveal will be much slower or not at all according to how our interactions proceed.

    It's not because I want the person's approval, though that could often be the case with INFJ. It's because I don't necessarily trust them to be accepting of me in my entirety and I prefer to keep myself to myself much of the time.

    I guess it's not so unusual. I can see how it could look disingenuous though doesn't feel that way. Ahh intimacy! The dance of trust.
    Very true. If I don't trust you or you obviously don't care you get surface kindness, a deeper connection needs to be earned to some degree.

  10. #100
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Of course I meant: ya bla non blub, I am cant no longer, my ideas a re running shorter and shorter (really small)
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

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