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[ENFJ] Are ENFJs the least "thoughtful" NF?

proteanmix

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Why are you categorizing the time travel thing as Ti?

You sort of used Ni to overlay a values context on the discussion. It was clear they meant one thing or were approaching the conversation in one frame of mind; you took it into a different framework in order to make a social values point relevant to you individually.

No the time travel isn't Ti, it's the the Ti thought interupted the congenial feeling mood. If I wanted to keep the atmosphere in high spirits I would've kept that thought to myself.
 

Totenkindly

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The funny part is that you took it so personally that they didn't "know what it's like to be you" never considering the gravity of them not even seeing you as a separate entity from themselves, which is my definition of closeness.

IOW, it should have been a compliment to PM? :)
 

jenocyde

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IOW, it should have been a compliment to PM? :)

I know it seems counter intuitive, but as a minority and a female growing up in the 80s, people made a big deal to tell me I could never have been this or that in whatever era we were discussing. Now, I have to remind people that I am "different" from them. It seems a little more progressive, if not complimentary. And in exchange, I tend to see less "white devils" running around. Just sayin'.
 

proteanmix

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The funny part is that you took it so personally that they didn't "know what it's like to be you" never considering the gravity of them not even seeing you as a separate entity from themselves, which is my definition of closeness.


Hmmm, hadn't thought of that. My point was to make them see my separateness and not lump me in. I wanted to be different then because having them see my differentness would've helped them to understand my POV much better and in my mind lead to better communication.
 

jenocyde

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Hmmm, hadn't thought of that. My point was to make them see my separateness and not lump me in. I wanted to be different then because having them see my differentness would've helped them to understand my POV much better and in my mind lead to better communication.

Oh, I completely get it. But my Ne forces me to look at things from all sides. I can't turn it off if I tried. Then Ti comes and concludes the most plausible angle.
 

proteanmix

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No the time travel isn't Ti, it's the the Ti thought interupted the congenial feeling mood. If I wanted to keep the atmosphere in high spirits I would've kept that thought to myself.

I love quoting me!

Now, I can't help but interrupt that congenial feeling mood and I purposefully will interrupt them. Meetings at work are a prime example. It's gets to sickening for me if I don't say anything. It's part of why that ENFJ/INFP thread annoyed the fuck out of me. It's another reason why popularity threads on the forum annoy the fuck out of me. Something feels terribly wrong about these situations and I don't know why.
 

iwakar

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The funny part is that you took it so personally that they didn't "know what it's like to be you" never considering the gravity of them not even seeing you as a separate entity from themselves, which is my definition of closeness.

^^This.

It wasn't about not caring about your hypothetical plight. It was about momentarily forgetting that you were in any way different from them or at a disadvantage historically speaking.
 

Qre:us

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Talk to me. :)

Not a single ENFJ yet....:crickets chirping: :tongue:

So what do you have to say ENFJs? What do you THINK about? What are you THOUGHTFUL about? If I cut your brain open what would I see? Are you like a pinata and candy will fall out? Will the secrets of the universe be revealed? I'm obviously being a little sarcastic but I'm really curious to know.

I read through the thread, but rather than systematically quote those posts that piqued my interest for further exploration, I'll just start from scratch (so, sorry if some things have been repeated or addressed).

Coming from an ENTP pov, commenting on one example of an ENFJ, a confirmed one, my best friend. She's the one who introduced me to Type theory.

Out of all my friends, I always tell her, if she was a man, I'd have found my soulmate. We *get* each other - so deeply that I haven't found that syncronicity with another human being.

Why I think she's quite thoughtful...

She's in a scientific profession, Pharm.D., and although she values monetary success, she wanted that human appeal...in pharmacy. So, she's now a medical director heading the palliative care in a hospice. And she says it tires and drains her and she contemplates just following the money trail, and, in the same breath, laughingly tells me, 'you know I won't'.

There's this tortured soul about her, like that seen in INFJ, but, unlike the INFJ who radiates it upfront, for me, at least, there's a deeper poetic sadness with the ENFJ because she will put on a smile and airy attitude to mask that. She doesn't want to burden others, nor does she thinks her burden are worthy enough in the face of what humanity faces. While INFJ comes from a 'me-to-others' (that self[ish]) air, it's the opposite with this ENFJ, 'others-then-me'.

She's one of the few people I've met, who know to ask the right question to get to a deeper truth, and in the most appealing form to allow for the answers to flow from a person without any conflict or uneasiness. She can make you sing your pain. She will make you feel like she truly is interested in what you have to say (and she is), because she will ask about this or that minutae remark of yours months after, to the receipient's shock, like, "You remembered?" I've never felt like I was losing her interest when I would go on and on about an issue (in contrast, I will get that from my ESFJ best friend..the tuning out). I.e., she's truly interested in others' deepest philosophies about life, and she will go there, and allow you such comfort to travel that road with her.

I often comment on functions in isolation, but truth be told, like someone mentioned 'fuzziness', I agree. I think functions work in tandem so it's hard to comment on functions in isolation, especially when we speak, not of a theoretical example, but a real person. With this caveat, I will say that I think her Fe+Ni acts as a counter to my (Ne)Ti. Where I will take a system and try to parse it out into logical steps where one follows the other, she will be able to counter me by picking up how it would appeals to the greater whole, in application (i.e., the human element). And, she has a point, who is to say that my Ti is 'correct' because it can figure out exactly how that system should work, step by step, when she can figure out how that system would work, in the widest application of it (yes, details may be fuzzy). Depth versus breadth. She's the only one I know who willingly debates with me, and, she's tenacious like me, our longest, non-stop debate once was over 10 hrs.

I think ENFJ are the most people-person of the whole NFs. Now, I don't mean people-person as we know it. I mean in the sense that often, there's this feeling that she has sacrificed herself by giving herself to the world. And, because of this, I think she often doesn't think there's much importance in what *she* wants, it's all a response to the world, her identity. Our running joke, "Q, you know, I can't figure it out, but, I just feel...um.."
Me: Anxious?
Her: :shock: Yes!

I think she carries the most anxiety out of anyone I know, and it's because her anxiety are not hers in isolation, but, that of the tidbits she picks up from the world. So, there's this constant struggle to find *her* amidst it all. The times she gets immediate clarity on *her* is when certain core values are trespassed, then, she's ruthless. And, it's quite a sight.

And, I don't know about others, but, my friend can and does 'rock the boat'. She will, and often does, call others' bullshit faster than anyone else I know.

A friend of ours, ESFP, who puts on fake masks to appeal to the trivialities of others, was walking towards us while we waited in a line in front of a club. A long line. She was shassaying her hips, and her lips were in an obvious pout. She was playing to the audience in the long line-up. My ENFJ from the other end, back of the line, loudly, "Why do you look like that? What is wrong with your lips?"

My ESFP friend's pout immediately fell, and her walk became her regular walk and she hurried over to us, flusteringly chiding my ENFJ friend, "P, stop saying that, why would you say that out loud?!"

My ENFJ friend, "Well, you're not constipated, so stop trying to look like that for the audience!"

Yeah, she will sacrifice harmony when she sees that there's fakeness taking AWAY from the deeper reality of a situation. She's all for fluff when there's no TAKING AWAY/hindering the truth of a deeper reality, and she will often play into it, in those times, but, if there's a TAKING AWAY, she's the first to call it out. (dunno if I explained this well)

In conclusion, I'd say ENFJ are the most outwardly thoughtful type I know.

She just sometimes forgets about small social etiquettes like keeping in touch, pampering others' whims - which is the marked difference b.w her and my other ESFJ best friend. It's the S/N difference.
 

the state i am in

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the difference between exfj Fe vs Ti and entp Ti vs Fe is that the most important home-like in your own element way of being is Fe. your main way of approaching situations is in feeling them out and using those feelings to process what is right. Ti is antithetical to that bc its way of perceiving the situation is so opposed that the goals you have as an Fe dom make no sense at all within its mode of operation. it is very difficult to store causal relationships and setup your dominoes while you are attending to others on the surface of their expression, nurse AND doctor at the same time, meeting the signs halfway IMMEDIATELY and in the moment, trying to get a sense of their holistic feeling kind of conjunction, and trying it all on rather than observing the situation as an objective purposeful experiment and application of pure science.

for entp Fe is a way of disarming others, creating harmony for a larger purpose, Ti, figuring out what will happen and then using Fe to help ensure that the articulation and extraversion you use is the most affectative, most persuasive and rhetorically put forth, most in touch with others needs so that you can arrange the situation as you see fit to make it like a crazy putt-putt course that will end in a hole-in-one. but even with all that, the main mode of being for entp is Ne, not Ti, logic comes after the opportunity to explore and open up new possibilities and perceive connections between things. dominant perceivers are in love with information.
 

jenocyde

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Q - you are right about the tenacity. I told you, I argue with my ENFJ cousin for hours on end - draining even me out. And as much shit as I talk about his "weakness", he is the one person that will consistently go to bat for me when he perceives trouble around me. He really does. He is also my best friend, even though he is a manipulative, finicky bastaard!
 

Totenkindly

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I know it seems counter intuitive, but as a minority and a female growing up in the 80s, people made a big deal to tell me I could never have been this or that in whatever era we were discussing. Now, I have to remind people that I am "different" from them. It seems a little more progressive, if not complimentary. And in exchange, I tend to see less "white devils" running around. Just sayin'.

Totally agree, it was a good point to bring up.

My daughter is Asian, btw... but our family never remembers... nor does she. We don't even notice the physical differences as being in different racial categories at this point.

It wasn't about not caring about your hypothetical plight. It was about momentarily forgetting that you were in any way different from them or at a disadvantage historically speaking.

I couldn't just assume something like that.

To me, it seems more probable that it was PARTLY this.... but also to SOME degree that they weren't thinking about past history from any other racial POV but theirs and not even considering that blacks would have been slaves and perceiving PM's plight ahead of time, until she brought it up.

(... and sorry, just like when Jenocyde mentioned how she can't turn off Ne, well, I can't turn my nuance-thinking skill off either, I see potential loopholes in assumptions right away and have trouble not acknowledging them.)
 
G

Glycerine

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Well for me, it always seems to depress me if I go too much into my head so I kind of have stopped going really deep inside myself in order to loosen up a bit. However, if I really need to critically analyze and be insightful about something, I can be very thoughtful. Once I wrote a paper about "the idealization of love vs. real love" which took hours of thought.
 

Qre:us

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Hmmm, hadn't thought of that. My point was to make them see my separateness and not lump me in. I wanted to be different then because having them see my differentness would've helped them to understand my POV much better and in my mind lead to better communication.

The issue is....you could probably think of instances/situations where you'd be just as frustrated if they separated you due to your race...pointed out how you were not one of them. So, from their end, it's the least conflict-rearing approach....you are one of them until stated otherwise, versus, you are NOT one of them, until stated otherwise. The third option is case by case....and there's an element of unpredictability in that, meaning, they would be playing the odds of when it would be best to see you as same/different. More chances of possible conflict. Hence, the most likely choice is, 'you are one of us, until we get jolted to see your difference primarily through the lens of race [gender]'. More about you beyond your race and gender. Isn't that a sign of acceptance in friendship?
 

jenocyde

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Well for me, it always seems to depress me if I go too much into my head so I kind of have stopped going really deep inside myself in order to loosen up a bit. However, if I really need to critically analyze and be insightful about something, I can be very thoughtful. Once I wrote a paper about "the idealization of love vs. real love" which took hours of thought.

Hahaha, but you are still thinking of feelings! cute!

I know what you mean, though. It's exhausting and draining to delve into deep feelings - to take that journey...
 

Domino

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I have noticed a very marked pattern of when any type tries to ask a serious question to ENFJs the thread very quickly degenerates into platitudes, anecdotal stories, and misplaced sympathy. Even mongrel ENFPs manage to give some insightful posts into their psyche but I have not seen that very often with threads aimed at ENFJs. Either they get less than 10 responses, six of which are made by non-ENFJs or they turn into "NO YOU'RE AWESOME!!" Chinese firedrills.

Guilty as charged. I tend to have knee-jerk humor, and I'm sorry for any truly unnecessary derails on my part.

I'd just like to know why is it finding thoughtfully elucidated statements from ENFJs on the forum is nigh impossible. I'm not talking about sympathizing or charming or cracking a joke. Part of the reason why I can only muster two posts a day is because I try to THINK about the responses I give and make them reasoned. The hamsters in my brain say no more after a certain point.

May I also be blunt here?

For one thing, yes, you're right -- I like to sit down and really apply myself to a serious response. I have trouble with this because I have a lot going on mentally and am physically exhausted by relentless external forces that I won't go into, so even things I may be interested in fall down in the queue, regardless of how interested in them I am.

My INFJ father and I were having a riveting conversation on the way home from the specialist's office about the St. Valentine's Day massacre and the birth of modern ballistic forensics, so I have plenty going on to feed me, but the energy it takes to relate that information? Too much, many times. I tend to be a storage device.

Maybe jokes are "easy" for us? Stress relief? I'm with IDK, I get so depressed because I'm up in my head all the time, and it can be a very stressful place, so when I emerge, I tend to come out looking for someone/something to jerk the release valve in whatever form that takes.

Also (this is the blunt part), when I first arrived here, I found the general air of the forum to be wholly ignorant, fearful and cynical about ENFJs, and that the merest mention of us elicited a cross and garlic lei-making frenzy. That saddened and annoyed me to no end, esp since this was supposed to be a place where people could get to know each other in an non-judgmental environment based on a scientific theory meant to elucidate our personal interactions, not YET ANOTHER blunt force object used to brain whomever didn't pass muster with a disgruntled few clustering up in one spot like barnacles.

I stuck around for the people who were actually giving me a try and helping me learn about myself too in the process. I've met so many great people here.

However. IMO, the rock-throwing still keeps occurring and most of it seems to come from near total lack of experience with our type. Obnoxious. Do you remember how the atmosphere changed when Jeffster arrived? We didn't have many ISFPs and he really stuck it out against huge Senser bias. Glad he did.

And for the record, if I hear one more "ENFPs are sluts" comment, I may eat my shoe.


So what do you have to say ENFJs? What do you THINK about? What are you THOUGHTFUL about? If I cut your brain open what would I see? Are you like a pinata and candy will fall out? Will the secrets of the universe be revealed? I'm obviously being a little sarcastic but I'm really curious to know.

Talk to me. :)

What *don't* I think about? I'm so fortunate as to have subscriptions to Scientific American (my Ti exercise!), Smithsonian, and Nat'l Geo. I'm interested in everything (not CSI bullet-wound yuck, though, thanks...)

One of my favorite subjects is linguistics -- it's like rock layers, giving up it's forensic data only on a social level. I was stating in my blog that I'd met a man at the doctor's office, just by chance, who had the oddest accent. I sat there processing it, and thought I had it right, but asked him politely where he was from anyway. Virginia, he said. Hmm, coastal plain? I asked. Anyone saying "cansuh centuh" is coastal. He seemed very pleased to have been "found out" as a Virginian. I think I would be very happy to go into linguistics as a science. :)

I'm also a fiend for genealogy, ancient history and hermeneutics. My sister lovingly calls me her egghead because of the strange things I regurgitate. I'm like everyone else, I forget things, esp things I need to be doing *NOW*, but I have a freakish memory and can store up things for decades with near total recall. It can be harrowing and great.
 

jenocyde

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Like I said, my ENFJ cousin is super intelligent, but reserves those conversations for politics only, for some reason. He is also very insecure and I have to talk him down off many ledges when he is left alone with his thoughts for too long.

(glad Jeffster stuck it out. and glad you did, too) :hug:
 
G

Glycerine

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Like I said, my ENFJ cousin is super intelligent, but reserves those conversations for politics only, for some reason. He is also very insecure and I have to talk him down off many ledges when he is left alone with his thoughts for too long.

(glad Jeffster stuck it out. and glad you did, too) :hug:

This is the thing I have noticed with ENFJs I know. Many of them (including me) seem to go down a dark, dark place if they think about things for too long.
 

Domino

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Like I said, my ENFJ cousin is super intelligent, but reserves those conversations for politics only, for some reason. He is also very insecure and I have to talk him down off many ledges when he is left alone with his thoughts for too long.

Conversing with anyone who's insecure makes the whole idea of exploration or improvement three-legged and virtually impossible. Frustrating waste of effort on ANY level. I've threatened to tie my ENFJ friend to a tree and leave him when he's going atmospheric. Even *I* know trying to reason with an unreasonable ENFJ can be a Sysiphan endeavor. This is why I spend so much time alone. I *must* have time to offload/sift through the inputs, or I won't be human.

When I was in robotics, I liked the idea of objects that weren't burdened by feelings, but ultimately, I discovered that even the nerds (forgive the term) were assigning human traits to the robots, naming them, treating them like people. I fell prey to that immediately. When I was passing tedious moments in the lab, I was making up hugely elaborate stories about me and the guys and the robots in my mind. I believe I brought in home made fudge and brownies on a few occasions, just because I knew the guys needed a little lift. (More Fe?...) Eating brownies while coding is better than just coding. *laughs*

I did similar things with the heavy equipment when I was a mechanic. I remember sympathetically patting a small army of street sweepers that had been inundated in hurricane flood water and needed all their filters and fluids changed just to function. We got very old things through the garage. One 50 or 60 year old engine that I swear was brought up from the Titanic -- it took super-human tenacity to resurrect it. The way it spat and coughed and rattled when it first came to life was truly pathetic. I wound up writing a story in my head about it. The real engines used "personality modules" and other people-trait named units (named by logic-driven engineers!), and that to me just reinforced the knee-jerk imprint of people on everything they touch, as if it were inevitable.

(glad Jeffster stuck it out. and glad you did, too) :hug:

me too! :hug:
 

Domino

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This is the thing I have noticed with ENFJs I know. Many of them (including me) seem to go down a dark, dark place if they think about things for too long.

My darkness is remarked on frequently by family and friends. I'm not a grotesque or deviant person, just very dark and stormy.

Or Fizzgig.
 

heart

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But you know, a lot of INTPs (and NTs in general) aren't even aware or conscious of those feelings. We're not hiding them, for the most part. Does this mean that the ENFJ are not even aware or conscious of their thoughts?

I am feeling Dom and as I said, what "feels" like the logical solution comes from nowhere (Ne-Te?) but if I stop and think on it, then yes I can in my mind lay out the logic track, but doing so in a backtrack like method and I'd really shy away from talking about it, certainly wouldn't engage in it for fun. I do my own mental work that requires Te, a lot of history study and that wipes out my energy for such work, so on a message board I am not likely to do a lot of THINKING. :D
 
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