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  1. #71
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    Some of us really want to trust people, but enough people break trust so one ends up having to be paranoid to avoid being taken. I don't care if the person means it or not, if it still is going to hurt in the end I might as well be on guard.
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

    INFP, 6w7, IEI

    I accept no responsibility, what so ever, for the fact that I exist; I do, however, accept full responsibility for what I do while I exist.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  2. #72
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    However clever I think I am, there is always someone more clever. And if that person decides to be devious, I am by default more innocent than him or her.
    It's not about cleverness and all about deviousness. Why should anyone have to be on guard, or else when they are a victim of an underhanded attack, it is all their fault?

  3. #73
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runvardh View Post
    Some of us really want to trust people, but enough people break trust so one ends up having to be paranoid to avoid being taken. I don't care if the person means it or not, if it still is going to hurt in the end I might as well be on guard.
    That's a little bit different, I think. People get hurt sometimes. I wouldn't call that manipulation. But it does suck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    It's not about cleverness and all about deviousness. Why should anyone have to be on guard, or else when they are a victim of an underhanded attack, it is all their fault?
    Your guess is as good as mine.

  4. #74
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Isn't manipulation about a conscious intent?

  5. #75
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Isn't manipulation about a conscious intent?

  6. #76
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I know that the term is thrown around too much, for sure. Just like the word "debate" with my type. Any two people can talk about anything, but if I join in, it's a debate or argument all of a sudden. But this doesn't mean that I am not extremely good at debating, whether I partake in it or not.
    That's not fair. If you aren't being argumentative or combative, why should the dynamic change simply because you've arrived?

    Debating + ENTPs = rollicking foreplay. *ahem* It was even fun to watch him get riled up and turn a little red and get exasperated with me while wanting to rip my clothes off. NICE. It was usually over some technical detail or philosophical matter. (Or that time I sold his watch to someone... or when I filled his truck with pine cones... or when I put muddy boot prints on his pants...). I used to wear 4 inch heels on garage-less Fridays just for him.

    Good times, good times.

    Manipulation is a funny thing. The whole point is that it's subversive, which leads to the paranoia of the masses. And while I agree that the word is used way too often in speaking about ENFJs, I don't agree that only the innocent should be defended. However clever I think I am, there is always someone more clever. And if that person decides to be devious, I am by default more innocent than him or her. Whatever, I'm just all over the place with this one... Manipulation clearly doesn't apply to you (thankfully) which is why you have a hard time accepting the level of damage it causes or how widespread it is. I used to believe that everyone is in control of their own mind, but now I'm not so sure...
    Paranoia - thank you. That's the word I was hunting for. I cannot tolerate paranoia. It's an agent of chaos with no inroad. It can't be reasoned with or appealed to emotionally. It might as well be a rabid animal you shoot on sight and save your energy because you can't save it.

    And you're right. I do find it hard to accept that people warp and twist and attempt to hurt others with their lies and mechinations. It's part of what drives me up into my head a lot. The fact that I'm trying not to sweepingly condemn the human race for the predators I see on tv or have personally done battle against shows that I've still got fight in me, but it's exhausting, and I have zero tolerance for angsty "they're trying to control me" outbursts. I don't mean "my belligerent overbearing alcoholic/abusive father/mother tries to control me and makes my life hell", I mean "my boyfriend doesn't let me wear flip flops to dinner".

    I feel sorry for the 90 year old lady who trusted her neighbor to cut her grass and not return to kill her and steal her things (this happened recently and I was so outraged I had to go walk it off... what if that had been my grandmother?). I don't feel sympathy for people who don't believe they should have to bend to ANYTHING at ANY TIME for ANYONE.

    I have no patience for that kind of obstinate me-ism, esp since I already have my patience eroded by violent criminals, people who burn their babies with cigarettes, people who drink and drive, malicious humor, wife-beaters, petty vandals, and people who think it's "cool" to complain about the government but don't vote.

    I feel like manipulation can be stopped because it's a present tense action. Lies are always post-dated, even when they extend into the present.

    How can people DO that to each other?? We're not animals! Why do they do that?!
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    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  7. #77
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    IME, ENFJs can be uber-thoughtful. But when their Ti is not respected by themselves and integrated into their daily lives, it's limited to thoughtfulness on their terms. Which often means at the expense of how others would appreciate thoughtfulness. Which, I'd bet, is the reason for the misperception between (some) non-ENFJs and ENFJs respective views on the subject.

    We all have our blindspots, and probably non-ENFJs are missing some ENFJ strengths, while ENFJs are missing how their blind spots are unintentionally hurting others by not giving them the support that they need.

    (I've seen ENFJs competent academically with their Ti but seemingly unwilling to apply it to their interpersonals--it's a little box that they open up for classroom-related activities and they keep it hidden away even when i'm pointing to it and jumping up and down trying to get them to pull out that tool and put it to use.)
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  8. #78
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    We live in a world of sick, Pink.

    Let's run away - you and me against the world. You can be Thelma. Or The Sundance Kid. Or Bonnie.

    (but we are animals)

  9. #79
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    IME, ENFJs can be uber-thoughtful. But when their Ti is not respected by themselves and integrated into their daily lives, it's limited to thoughtfulness on their terms. Which often means at the expense of how others would appreciate thoughtfulness. Which, I'd bet, is the reason for the misperception between (some) non-ENFJs and ENFJs respective views on the subject.

    We all have our blindspots, and probably non-ENFJs are missing some ENFJ strengths, while ENFJs are missing how their blind spots are unintentionally hurting others by not giving them the support that they need.

    (I've seen ENFJs competent academically with their Ti but seemingly unwilling to apply it to their interpersonals--it's a little box that they open up for classroom-related activities and they keep it hidden away even when i'm pointing to it and jumping up and down trying to get them to pull out that tool and put it to use.)
    Well-said, and thanks for sharing! Always good to see you!

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    We live in a world of sick, Pink.

    Let's run away - you and me against the world. You can be Thelma. Or The Sundance Kid. Or Bonnie.
    YAY!!! I'll hot-wire an old Buick and we can stylishly tear around the West (from gas station to gas station... danged old Buick!) and look really mysterious and tough but feminine and slightly shiny from a comely amount of perspiration!

    (but we are animals)
    Can we be super sexy fun sparkle princess happy awesome animals?!
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  10. #80
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    That's a little bit different, I think. People get hurt sometimes. I wouldn't call that manipulation. But it does suck.
    I wasn't speaking of just manipulation; the word, also, did not show up in my post.
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

    INFP, 6w7, IEI

    I accept no responsibility, what so ever, for the fact that I exist; I do, however, accept full responsibility for what I do while I exist.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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