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  1. #41
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Why are you categorizing the time travel thing as Ti?

    You sort of used Ni to overlay a values context on the discussion. It was clear they meant one thing or were approaching the conversation in one frame of mind; you took it into a different framework in order to make a social values point relevant to you individually.
    No the time travel isn't Ti, it's the the Ti thought interupted the congenial feeling mood. If I wanted to keep the atmosphere in high spirits I would've kept that thought to myself.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  2. #42
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    The funny part is that you took it so personally that they didn't "know what it's like to be you" never considering the gravity of them not even seeing you as a separate entity from themselves, which is my definition of closeness.
    IOW, it should have been a compliment to PM?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #43
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    IOW, it should have been a compliment to PM?
    I know it seems counter intuitive, but as a minority and a female growing up in the 80s, people made a big deal to tell me I could never have been this or that in whatever era we were discussing. Now, I have to remind people that I am "different" from them. It seems a little more progressive, if not complimentary. And in exchange, I tend to see less "white devils" running around. Just sayin'.

  4. #44
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    The funny part is that you took it so personally that they didn't "know what it's like to be you" never considering the gravity of them not even seeing you as a separate entity from themselves, which is my definition of closeness.

    Hmmm, hadn't thought of that. My point was to make them see my separateness and not lump me in. I wanted to be different then because having them see my differentness would've helped them to understand my POV much better and in my mind lead to better communication.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  5. #45
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Hmmm, hadn't thought of that. My point was to make them see my separateness and not lump me in. I wanted to be different then because having them see my differentness would've helped them to understand my POV much better and in my mind lead to better communication.
    Oh, I completely get it. But my Ne forces me to look at things from all sides. I can't turn it off if I tried. Then Ti comes and concludes the most plausible angle.

  6. #46
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    No the time travel isn't Ti, it's the the Ti thought interupted the congenial feeling mood. If I wanted to keep the atmosphere in high spirits I would've kept that thought to myself.
    I love quoting me!

    Now, I can't help but interrupt that congenial feeling mood and I purposefully will interrupt them. Meetings at work are a prime example. It's gets to sickening for me if I don't say anything. It's part of why that ENFJ/INFP thread annoyed the fuck out of me. It's another reason why popularity threads on the forum annoy the fuck out of me. Something feels terribly wrong about these situations and I don't know why.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    The funny part is that you took it so personally that they didn't "know what it's like to be you" never considering the gravity of them not even seeing you as a separate entity from themselves, which is my definition of closeness.
    ^^This.

    It wasn't about not caring about your hypothetical plight. It was about momentarily forgetting that you were in any way different from them or at a disadvantage historically speaking.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  8. #48
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Talk to me.
    Not a single ENFJ yet....:crickets chirping:

    So what do you have to say ENFJs? What do you THINK about? What are you THOUGHTFUL about? If I cut your brain open what would I see? Are you like a pinata and candy will fall out? Will the secrets of the universe be revealed? I'm obviously being a little sarcastic but I'm really curious to know.
    I read through the thread, but rather than systematically quote those posts that piqued my interest for further exploration, I'll just start from scratch (so, sorry if some things have been repeated or addressed).

    Coming from an ENTP pov, commenting on one example of an ENFJ, a confirmed one, my best friend. She's the one who introduced me to Type theory.

    Out of all my friends, I always tell her, if she was a man, I'd have found my soulmate. We *get* each other - so deeply that I haven't found that syncronicity with another human being.

    Why I think she's quite thoughtful...

    She's in a scientific profession, Pharm.D., and although she values monetary success, she wanted that human appeal...in pharmacy. So, she's now a medical director heading the palliative care in a hospice. And she says it tires and drains her and she contemplates just following the money trail, and, in the same breath, laughingly tells me, 'you know I won't'.

    There's this tortured soul about her, like that seen in INFJ, but, unlike the INFJ who radiates it upfront, for me, at least, there's a deeper poetic sadness with the ENFJ because she will put on a smile and airy attitude to mask that. She doesn't want to burden others, nor does she thinks her burden are worthy enough in the face of what humanity faces. While INFJ comes from a 'me-to-others' (that self[ish]) air, it's the opposite with this ENFJ, 'others-then-me'.

    She's one of the few people I've met, who know to ask the right question to get to a deeper truth, and in the most appealing form to allow for the answers to flow from a person without any conflict or uneasiness. She can make you sing your pain. She will make you feel like she truly is interested in what you have to say (and she is), because she will ask about this or that minutae remark of yours months after, to the receipient's shock, like, "You remembered?" I've never felt like I was losing her interest when I would go on and on about an issue (in contrast, I will get that from my ESFJ best friend..the tuning out). I.e., she's truly interested in others' deepest philosophies about life, and she will go there, and allow you such comfort to travel that road with her.

    I often comment on functions in isolation, but truth be told, like someone mentioned 'fuzziness', I agree. I think functions work in tandem so it's hard to comment on functions in isolation, especially when we speak, not of a theoretical example, but a real person. With this caveat, I will say that I think her Fe+Ni acts as a counter to my (Ne)Ti. Where I will take a system and try to parse it out into logical steps where one follows the other, she will be able to counter me by picking up how it would appeals to the greater whole, in application (i.e., the human element). And, she has a point, who is to say that my Ti is 'correct' because it can figure out exactly how that system should work, step by step, when she can figure out how that system would work, in the widest application of it (yes, details may be fuzzy). Depth versus breadth. She's the only one I know who willingly debates with me, and, she's tenacious like me, our longest, non-stop debate once was over 10 hrs.

    I think ENFJ are the most people-person of the whole NFs. Now, I don't mean people-person as we know it. I mean in the sense that often, there's this feeling that she has sacrificed herself by giving herself to the world. And, because of this, I think she often doesn't think there's much importance in what *she* wants, it's all a response to the world, her identity. Our running joke, "Q, you know, I can't figure it out, but, I just feel...um.."
    Me: Anxious?
    Her: Yes!

    I think she carries the most anxiety out of anyone I know, and it's because her anxiety are not hers in isolation, but, that of the tidbits she picks up from the world. So, there's this constant struggle to find *her* amidst it all. The times she gets immediate clarity on *her* is when certain core values are trespassed, then, she's ruthless. And, it's quite a sight.

    And, I don't know about others, but, my friend can and does 'rock the boat'. She will, and often does, call others' bullshit faster than anyone else I know.

    A friend of ours, ESFP, who puts on fake masks to appeal to the trivialities of others, was walking towards us while we waited in a line in front of a club. A long line. She was shassaying her hips, and her lips were in an obvious pout. She was playing to the audience in the long line-up. My ENFJ from the other end, back of the line, loudly, "Why do you look like that? What is wrong with your lips?"

    My ESFP friend's pout immediately fell, and her walk became her regular walk and she hurried over to us, flusteringly chiding my ENFJ friend, "P, stop saying that, why would you say that out loud?!"

    My ENFJ friend, "Well, you're not constipated, so stop trying to look like that for the audience!"

    Yeah, she will sacrifice harmony when she sees that there's fakeness taking AWAY from the deeper reality of a situation. She's all for fluff when there's no TAKING AWAY/hindering the truth of a deeper reality, and she will often play into it, in those times, but, if there's a TAKING AWAY, she's the first to call it out. (dunno if I explained this well)

    In conclusion, I'd say ENFJ are the most outwardly thoughtful type I know.

    She just sometimes forgets about small social etiquettes like keeping in touch, pampering others' whims - which is the marked difference b.w her and my other ESFJ best friend. It's the S/N difference.

  9. #49
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    the difference between exfj Fe vs Ti and entp Ti vs Fe is that the most important home-like in your own element way of being is Fe. your main way of approaching situations is in feeling them out and using those feelings to process what is right. Ti is antithetical to that bc its way of perceiving the situation is so opposed that the goals you have as an Fe dom make no sense at all within its mode of operation. it is very difficult to store causal relationships and setup your dominoes while you are attending to others on the surface of their expression, nurse AND doctor at the same time, meeting the signs halfway IMMEDIATELY and in the moment, trying to get a sense of their holistic feeling kind of conjunction, and trying it all on rather than observing the situation as an objective purposeful experiment and application of pure science.

    for entp Fe is a way of disarming others, creating harmony for a larger purpose, Ti, figuring out what will happen and then using Fe to help ensure that the articulation and extraversion you use is the most affectative, most persuasive and rhetorically put forth, most in touch with others needs so that you can arrange the situation as you see fit to make it like a crazy putt-putt course that will end in a hole-in-one. but even with all that, the main mode of being for entp is Ne, not Ti, logic comes after the opportunity to explore and open up new possibilities and perceive connections between things. dominant perceivers are in love with information.

  10. #50
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Q - you are right about the tenacity. I told you, I argue with my ENFJ cousin for hours on end - draining even me out. And as much shit as I talk about his "weakness", he is the one person that will consistently go to bat for me when he perceives trouble around me. He really does. He is also my best friend, even though he is a manipulative, finicky bastaard!

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