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  1. #31
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    ... Protean, you might not be able to avoid some reflection on the T vs F dichotomy here, if the things you are categorizing as Fe-specific are actually broader than that. To just confine it erroneously to Fe would be, well, erroneous!
    So what's a Fe-specific reaction against Ti, rather than a F reaction against T?

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    And because of that, I would rely on my Fe to guide me through feigning shock when the cops question me, smiling and crying on cue, etc...
    See that's a ExTPs use of Fe, not a ExFJs use of Fe. I'm not saying there's no overlap but it's different. You're using Fe manipulatively, not as your raison d'etre. Do you see the difference?
    Last edited by proteanmix; 07-09-2009 at 09:38 AM. Reason: merged posts
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  2. #32
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    So what's a Fe-specific reaction against Ti, rather than a F reaction against T?
    I'm not sure, but you lump a lot of stuff that I see expressed by Fi people along with Fe people into the category of Fe... so then the whole discussion fuzzies up for me, or the MBTI theory itself is bad. I can't draw precise conclusions (only fuzzy ones) if the objects I'm playing with are fuzzy.

    Whatever. Keep talking, there is some good stuff being brought up here, and it's nice to see a deeper level of conversation occurring.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #33
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    See that's a ExTPs use of Fe, not a ExFJs use of Fe. I'm not saying there's no overlap but it's different. You're using Fe manipulatively, not as your raison d'etre. Do you see the difference?
    Yes, I see that there is a difference, but I am unable to identify the difference. can you give me an example of the ENFJ usage?

    EDIT: or rather, can you give me an example of how you think an ENFJ uses Ti?

  4. #34
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm not sure, but you lump a lot of stuff that I see expressed by Fi people along with Fe people into the category of Fe... so then the whole discussion fuzzies up for me, or the MBTI theory itself is bad. I can't draw precise conclusions (only fuzzy ones) if the objects I'm playing with are fuzzy.

    Whatever. Keep talking, there is some good stuff being brought up here, and it's nice to see a deeper level of conversation occurring.
    Game over. Maybe that's my Ti?

    ETA: I had a discussion once with my ol' friend Solitary Walker and he said it's impossible to bring the types to earth. Let's dig into some phi-lo-so-phy. Ideal forms, never meant to be placed on earth.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  5. #35
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    OK I think I found one!

    I wrote this a long time ago about Time Travel. The reason why I think this is a Ti interuption of Fe is because everyone was having a good time and then I went and threw a wet blanket on everything. Would you say this is a Fe-specification reaction against Ti?

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    This topic evolved into a pretty good discussion I had with some college friends of mine a couple of years ago. We were watching Sense and Sensibility (or some Jane Austen movie) and my friends were like, oh we'd love to go back to this time period! And I rolled my eyes and said I wouldn't. Of course they asked why and I said because I'd be a slave! It was dead silence while people took in the gravity of the statement. It hurt a little bit because these are people I considered friends, and it just showed me how rarely they thought about what it's like to be me in our own little group (so I'd basically figured out what they thought about it on a larger scale). Statements would be made that I just laughed off or ignored, but I couldn't let this one pass without giving my perspective.

    This has always been the funny thing with me and history and why the past has never held much appeal to me. I much prefer from this moment on. How far back could I go: 100, 200, 500, 1000 years? Is there any point in time that it would be OK for me to travel back when either my race or sex wouldn't be a big deal? I have no desire to see dinosaurs or sail with Christopher Columbus. I wouldn't mind witnessing the beginning of the universe. I wouldn't want some invisibility cloak so I could silently observe. I'd like to be an active participant. So I decided I'm not going to sacrifice the most salient parts of my identity just to experience history. I'll move forward and I can move into the future as the complete me.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    How can someone not be conscious of their thoughts? Please explain more deeply, I'm not understanding what is meant by this.
    Thinking for me seems to come as inspiration and I just know if something is logical or not but don't ask me to draw any diagrams or make any explainations. I likely won't hold my logic up so someone else can tear it apart but it serves me internally...from where ever it springs. (so when I think I am thinking, I am really Ne-ing?)

    Also many times when I would say I am thinking, I really running something through my data base of Fi and deciding how I feel about it.

  7. #37
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    OK I think I found one!

    I wrote this a long time ago about Time Travel. The reason why I think this is a Ti interuption of Fe is because everyone was having a good time and then I went and threw a wet blanket on everything. Would you say this is a Fe-specification reaction against Ti?
    Hahaha, I can totally identify! This is Fe to the fullest, imo. I mean the thought is Ni, but the delivery - you wanted to make them feel it. You wanted to give pause for them to be aware. I do stuff like that all the time for dramatic effect, appeal to the emotions.

    I did like to read this, though. Very well said.

  8. #38
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Why are you categorizing the time travel thing as Ti?

    You sort of used Ni to overlay a values context on the discussion. It was clear they meant one thing or were approaching the conversation in one frame of mind; you took it into a different framework in order to make a social values point relevant to you individually.

    I guess it would be Fe since you were taking advantage of the relationships in order to stick up for your own rights as a human being (that's only fair -- if you are catering to them as part of your friendship, they need to give you the same flex), and what was driving you was a sense of being unfairly ignored/disregarded in their particular fantasizing. Still not sure whether you used Ti or Ni to insert the "race" card, though.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #39
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    OK I think I found one!

    I wrote this a long time ago about Time Travel. The reason why I think this is a Ti interuption of Fe is because everyone was having a good time and then I went and threw a wet blanket on everything. Would you say this is a Fe-specification reaction against Ti?
    This seems similar to how I, as an NT, might engage my emotions. (And also use Ni to extrapolate deeper meaning behind one minute exchange, forever colouring my perception of those individuals.)
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  10. #40
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    OK I think I found one!

    I wrote this a long time ago about Time Travel. The reason why I think this is a Ti interuption of Fe is because everyone was having a good time and then I went and threw a wet blanket on everything. Would you say this is a Fe-specification reaction against Ti?
    The funny part is that you took it so personally that they didn't "know what it's like to be you" never considering the gravity of them not even seeing you as a separate entity from themselves, which is my definition of closeness.

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