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  1. #21
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    The Jungmeister sez:

    The essence of the inferior function is autonomy. It is independent, it attacks, it fascinates, and so spins us about that we are no longer masters of ourselves and can no longer rightly distinguish between ourselves and others.

    but also

    The unconscious has an inimical or ruthless bearing towards consciousness only when the latter adopts a false or pretentious attitude.

    And Lenore sez:

    The Inferior Function pressures you to take a different interpretation of certain signs than you are used to. However, this can lead you to become Semiotically Disoriented. Suddenly your inferior function confronts you with strange goals (due to different interpretations of signs), but your dominant function offers you no way to relate to them, let alone meet them. In fact, your dominant function will deny that these goals are even valid in the first place. It would love to sweep them under the carpet, and the Tertiary Temptation offers an excuse to do so. However, the secondary function may offer a way of interpreting signs that allows the dominant function to properly orient itself in relation to the goals of the inferior function.


    Thus, therefore, and willing I conclude, as should all good people, that ENFJs are least thoughtful when they are least engaged in investigating "What would happen if...."


    When they are unwilling to truly reflect, "Is there really only one way to do this?"


    Not endlessly to so reflect though, of course. That would to some degree be equally thoughtless. No, to reflect just the right amount. It's up to them how much.

    But anyway by the time they're, like, twelve years old, pretty much every person has started using their auxiliary function at least a little, right? So the word "thoughtful" has a pretty broad sweep. But I have no idea which whole type is more likely to fall prey to tertiary temptation most often and thus be, possibly, the least thoughtful of types.

  2. #22
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    I think this is a part of it. They are extremely sensitive to criticism. And this goes both ways, as they are careful not to offer criticism (or comments that could be miscontrued as criticism) that would endanger their relationships with others.
    I hate bringing up any negative things at all around them. One just started a new job and complained about his new staff. I pointed out that if he tried to be a little more strict, he would get a better response. He fought me for hours, tooth and nail, following me around my apartment, not letting anything go when I repeatedly relented (it was too much, even for me). After 3 hours of being badgered by him, he finally said "well, maybe I just need to put my foot down more"

    In my experience, it's never the topic he gets upset about, but more the audacity that someone would dare critique him - even though he asked me to.

  3. #23
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    That's what I wonder when I hear NTs saying they don't know how they feel. How is that even possible?! It could be the case with not knowing what they "think."
    I guess because it seems to me like we all think every day, we HAVE to in order to do anything.

    However, we do not HAVE to feel anything. We can be functional in society while just thinking, without any emotion whatsoever. Therefore it seems believable to me.

    So what level of "thought" are we talking about? Obviously we think enough to drive a car without hitting someone else, or making coffee and putting cream in it, or thinking about what clothes to wear. How can Feelers be COMPLETELY unaware of their thinking, in the same way / to the same depth that a cold/terrified Thinker can be UTTERLY oblivious to their feelings? We all have to think a little bit, at least; we don't have to feel ANYTHING, though.

    I can understand "not thinking" in the sense that Feelers have value judgments rather than conclusions that way that Thinkers derive them, so if you ask one why they believe something to be true, they have no answer for it... they just have a conviction, and this is why the "logic" that some use to support their values sounds like they made it up to support their values... because they did, after the fact, in the attempt to explain their values. But this doesn't work because the values are the basic building blocks and were never drawn as conclusions of some thinking process.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #24
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    How can someone not be conscious of their thoughts? Please explain more deeply, I'm not understanding what is meant by this.

    The ENFJs I've known (male and female) were capable of deep thinking/insight; the main issues were that their thinking was tied to their values and used to defend them.
    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    That's what I wonder when I hear NTs saying they don't know how they feel. How is that even possible?! It could be the case with not knowing what they "think."

    Seriously, this man is in love with like 10 different girls right now. He talks about each one each day with such passion. If he speaks of Jessica and I mention that he said the same thing about Rachel 3 hours earlier, he'll deny it outright or say that this isn't the same, the other was just puppy love. In 3 hours, he'll make a remark about Rachel and I'll remind him about what he said about Jessica, at which point he'll deny it.

    He's sleeping with all of them, but he compartmentalizes it in his mind (at least that's what I think). When he's with one, it's like he blacks the others out and they never happened. Whatever he is feeling right now, at this very second, is the ultimate truth.

    Ti/Si seems a bit weak.

  5. #25
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Seriously, this man is in love with like 10 different girls right now. He talks about each one each day with such passion. If he speaks of Jessica and I mention that he said the same thing about Rachel 3 hours earlier, he'll deny it outright or say that this isn't the same, the other was just puppy love. In 3 hours, he'll make a remark about Rachel and I'll remind him about what he said about Jessica, at which point he'll deny it.

    He's sleeping with all of them, but he compartmentalizes it in his mind (at least that's what I think). When he's with one, it's like he blacks the others out and they never happened. Whatever he is feeling right now, at this very second, is the ultimate truth. Ti/Si seems a bit weak.
    Okay, so we are identifying "thought" here as the force that permits behavior and motives to be consistently identified over time. (Or something like that?)

    IOW, "it has to make sense" (from a T's perspective, anyhoo).

    Actually, that is interesting, I've seen that pattern far too much, especially in my F kids. The "data' gets changed or dropped or ignored, to accommodate the values/desires.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #26
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Thus, therefore, and willing I conclude, as should all good people, that ENFJs are least thoughtful when they are least engaged in investigating "What would happen if...."


    When they are unwilling to truly reflect, "Is there really only one way to do this?"


    But by the time they're, like, twelve years old, pretty much every person has started using their auxiliary function at least a little, right? So the word "thoughtful" has a pretty broad sweep. But I have no idea which whole type is more likely to fall prey to tertiary temptation most often and thus be, possibly, the least thoughtful of types.
    Yeah, bad word. I didn't mean least thoughtful as in doesn't think.

    I'm trying to think of an example that's Fe-dom specific and showcases how Ti would be utterly ignored but useful if engaged.

    The only think I can immediately think of is the alleged ability for ENFJs to see "potential" in other. Usually this is described as positive potential. I think potential should also encompass negative potential as well. If a Fe-dom is engaging their Ti they'd also be keen on what negative potential is there as well as positive potential. I remember a Fe-dom coworker of mine were talking about what would we do if our child was accused of a murder. My coworker said she wouldn't care if he did it or not, that's her son and she'd even go as far as hiding the murder weapon and actively lying in his defense if he turned out to be guilty.

    Any type would probably react that way if it was their child, but I wonder if there was some Fe-specific reaction embedded in there. I don't know if there is or not, I'm trying to figure that out. Would it be considering your child might be guilty or just fighting it and disbelieving it no matter what evidence is presented to you? I'm not sure, this is just an example.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
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  7. #27
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Okay, so we are identifying "thought" here as the force that permits behavior and motives to be consistently identified over time. (Or something like that?)

    IOW, "it has to make sense" (from a T's perspective, anyhoo).

    Actually, that is interesting, I've seen that pattern far too much, especially in my F kids. The "data' gets changed or dropped or ignored, to accommodate the values/desires.
    It's all just speculation, but that's exactly how I perceive it to be. The feelings are the truth, the catalyst for action. But the feelings seem to change with the wind.

  8. #28
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Hey I don't want this to turn in a T vs F thread.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  9. #29
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Would it be considering your child might be guilty or just fighting it and disbelieving it no matter what evidence is presented to you?
    IOW, the belief in the person's positive potential trumps the evidence? ("My son couldn't have done THAT, he's BETTER than that!")

    Is that Fe, Ni gone out of control, or just a parental reaction to the fruit of one's loins?

    My INFP friends are better at it but still sometimes have that reaction when someone "lets them down" by doing something they didn't expect of them, because they had a positive-potential view of them.

    (To contrast, I can see someone as having positive potential; but their screw-ups don't surprise me either, and I accept them as facts as soon as I verify the event occurred, it just becomes part of my internal dataset on them. I just want to have an ACCURATE picture of someone, even if I have certain hopes for them.)

    ... Protean, you might not be able to avoid some reflection on the T vs F dichotomy here, if the things you are categorizing as Fe-specific are actually broader than that. To just confine it erroneously to Fe would be, well, erroneous!
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #30
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Hey I don't want this to turn in a T vs F thread.
    I think of it more as Ti vs Fe fighting for internal control. I have the same. Like you said with that example, I would never turn my child in. But not because he's my child. Only because the legal system doesn't make sense to me in this country, and the rehabilitation system makes even less sense. I would be a stronger fighter against his being caught because of the familial bond (Fe) but I think that I would fight for anyone who had a reasonable explanation as to why they did what they did.

    And because of that, I would rely on my Fe to guide me through feigning shock when the cops question me, smiling and crying on cue, etc...

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