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  1. #11
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    I've seen ENFJs at their most thoughtful during their "dark" phases. These are basically times when they've been separated from human contact for quite some time (willingly or not) and they begin to reassess how they approach situations and their general outlook on life. It can be a little scary for them, but they emerge with a greater perspective.

  2. #12
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    OK people. No derails by the 2nd post please.
    Wow. That was impressive.
    You didn't even get one good post before things went stinky south.

    Way to win your point and lose the war.

    I had an ENFJ who was very influential in my life. She was about ten years older than me, and she introduced me to MBTI back in the 90's. She was very encouraging of me as a person, she was able to help me put my good and bad in context and leave me feeling like I was a member of the human race.

    The problem was always about getting time with her, and once I moved out the area, she just did not maintain contact. She also just didn't do much e-mail, if any; she didn't seem to invest in it.

    My first therapist also was ENFJ, and that's been the same issue. In therapy, she was very insightful and responded so deeply to the things i would share with her, and we could discuss things in depth (enough to satisfy T-craving). We would laugh and laugh.

    However, once I stopped seeing her, our relationship basically ended. I would send her e-mails every so often with an update on my life (not to be overwhelming, just to keep in touch), and I would get back letters that were only a paragraph, maybe two, long at best.... all very pleasant and affirming in tone, all the warmth heart-felt, but no real meat whatsoever. In writing, she just was sort of negligible. And of course I always instigated the writing, which is a bummer since she was important to me and would have liked it to be more mutual.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #13
    heart on fire
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    Maybe it's just the tendancy to keep their deeper thoughts close and not expose them to the criticism of others. Sort of like INTP want to keep their deeper feeling side sheltered.

  4. #14
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    I don't know what the difference is between a thoughtful comment and bashing. Is it bashing if the thoughtful comment is negative?

    But back to the topic, I know a few ENFJ men really well and it seems like they think of how they come across quite often. One is almost paralyzed when leaving the house, checking and rechecking his outfit and asking repeatedly if he looks like a member of the prevalent social group in the neighborhood where he is headed. It's almost comical.

    He is extremely intelligent but uses this intelligence only for politics and world affairs. Other than that, he's just happy go lucky and will do almost anything not to offend anyone. When people are having serious discussions, he'll just blurt out cutesy nonsequitors and do a little dance. It's almost impossible to have a conversation with him that doesn't end 'cutesy', like you said. And he will only be offensive politically if he's speaking to someone who prefers individualism over community. I know this may not be as helpful, since I'm not an ENFJ, but on first glance it seems that their thoughts are like chessboards. Planning strategically each word and each step to maintain harmony and peace and laughter.

    The other thing I've noticed is that they are extremely empathetic to, what I perceive to be, a fault. I could come home with a story about being gang raped and he would say "those poor guys, I feel bad for them since they've probably never known a mother's love". While sweet, it's not productive and does not encourage people to go to them with their problems.

    Hmmm, I guess I'm just as curious as you are Protean...

  5. #15
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Maybe it's just the tendancy to keep their deeper thoughts close and not expose them to the criticism of others. Sort of like INTP want to keep their deeper feeling side sheltered.
    But you know, a lot of INTPs (and NTs in general) aren't even aware or conscious of those feelings. We're not hiding them, for the most part. Does this mean that the ENFJ are not even aware or conscious of their thoughts?

  6. #16
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Anyone can comment, but I would like this to be a thread with thoughtful responses rather than Fe and ExFJ bashing. There are plenty of those around.
    No bashing. I had nothing to add on the issue apart from acknowledging that from my experience Ti is a problem. I can't say I find ENFJs less thoughtful than other NFs. Only in the same sense that an ENTJ "is more concerned" with actual action than theorizing, when compared with, say, an INTX. The judging function is primary and external, so it only makes sense.

  7. #17
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Maybe it's just the tendancy to keep their deeper thoughts close and not expose them to the criticism of others. Sort of like INTP want to keep their deeper feeling side sheltered.
    I think this is a part of it. They are extremely sensitive to criticism. And this goes both ways, as they are careful not to offer criticism (or comments that could be miscontrued as criticism) that would endanger their relationships with others.

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    But you know, a lot of INTPs (and NTs in general) aren't even aware or conscious of those feelings. We're not hiding them, for the most part. Does this mean that the ENFJ are not even aware or conscious of their thoughts?
    Yes.

  8. #18
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Maybe it's just the tendancy to keep their deeper thoughts close and not expose them to the criticism of others. Sort of like INTP want to keep their deeper feeling side sheltered.
    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Does this mean that the ENFJ are not even aware or conscious of their thoughts?
    You guys are on the right track!
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  9. #19
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    How can someone not be conscious of their thoughts? Please explain more deeply, I'm not understanding what is meant by this.

    The ENFJs I've known (male and female) were capable of deep thinking/insight; the main issues were that their thinking was tied to their values and used to defend them.

    The one I was friends with had created his own RPG and I was invested in his project, both as an adviser and as an editor. There were some issues with the rules that I noticed myself from a theoretical standpoint, and playtesting brought them to the fore, players were complaining about it... but when I engaged him on the issue (in an impersonal way), I felt like he felt I was attacking him, and he refused to change the problem areas even though it made a lot of sense. The game had to reflect his values, rather than actually make playing experience more enjoyable (and thus allowing the game to become successful); and the effort failed.

    Anyway, a lot of the "thinking" can be put out there in front of others; but challenging the thinking seems to come across as an assault upon the person/values.

    ... and everything did have to stay positive, there was very little engagement if the situation had any critical tone to it.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #20
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    That's what I wonder when I hear NTs saying they don't know how they feel. How is that even possible?! It could be the case with not knowing what they "think."

    ETA: Ti is often like the elephant in the room I'm trying valiantly to ignore. Now, I'm more open to inviting it to the table. Often we just sit there looking at each other, but that's a start!
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

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