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[ENFJ] ENFJ's: Not Manipulative.

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
4,310
MBTI Type
INTJ
You know what's weird about this debate? Complaints consistently go unheard. Or trivialised. Or misdirected.

Why is that?

But half the world uses Fe. How come you haven't been able to characterise it adequately? How come you won't say?

Because you can't always tell the difference between other people's feelings and your own?


If you have the feelings, they're yours. If you're affected by other people, you're affected. If you manage this situation in the best way you can, you're a manager.

What are the rules?
 

Domino

ENFJ In Chains
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11,429
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eNFJ
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4w3
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sx/so
I'm really starting to be wary of pandas for some reason.
 

jenocyde

half mystic, half skeksis
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Again, learning that avatar was a panda shocked me to death the other day. I'm wary, too.
 

Domino

ENFJ In Chains
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Again, learning that avatar was a panda shocked me to death the other day. I'm wary, too.

It doesn't look healthy, just drugged and high-five-y. Panda babies should never give high-fives right out of the womb. They should start slowly with nose or ear wiggles.
 

Tallulah

Emerging
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Feb 19, 2008
Messages
6,009
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INTP
I don't think I've ever been manipulated by an ENFJ, or that one has ever tried to manipulate me. I still don't understand this concept of Fe = manipulation. And if you're feeling manipulated, can't you just say, "I don't think I will, thanks?" When my manipulator radar goes off, I find it pretty easy to make it known that I know what someone's attempting to do, and nip it in the bud.

Perhaps because I grew up in the South, Fe = hospitality, to me. It makes me feel secure. My old theatre prof grew up in Ohio, and he was always very distrustful of the Southern brand of Fe--he felt like it was ungenuine, though I don't think he ever had any evidence that it was. But he FELT like it was manipulative and false. It never occured to him that the people who were using it were using it genuinely and with good intentions. He always liked the brusqueness of New Yorkers because it felt to him like at least you knew where you stood. Brusqueness makes me feel uncomfortable, because it doesn't take into account how others might receive your demeanor. Point is, it is merely perception--some people might be manipulating you, but it might also just be your perception and what you feel comfortable with. Perhaps ENFJs get a bad rap because they are Fe primary, so you have a lot of it directed at you. The ones I know are extremely genuine and goodhearted, and will quickly examine their own motivations if you ask for clarification.
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
4,310
MBTI Type
INTJ
I'm really starting to be wary of pandas for some reason.

Know what, I already had a reply ready moments after I posted that last message in this thread, then I went to sleep and mostly forgot it, but it was something like:

"If you really do practice not being understood, one practical outcome is, y'know, not being understood."

And there was a second sentence, but I forgot it. Wish I could remember, it was a good sentence. It had a subtext, something about management being more trustworthy than trust, but it didn't come out and say that directly. To my mind, that sentence, whatever it was and lost now, would have been more effective than this paragraph.

It's a pain in the ass, though, having direct request for information be met by generous feeling modifiers. I know one day it's going to come back and trip me up. I'll get more and more pissed off at the obfuscation, and then one day, a little more than late, someone'll come out with a clear statement and I'll have to back off being righteous.



"As extraverts, their contacts are wide ranging. Face-to-face relationships are intense, personable and warm, though they may be so infrequently achieved that intimate friendships are rare."
 

Valuable_Money

New member
Joined
Jun 19, 2009
Messages
679
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ENTP
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5w6
My type does not manipulate. ENFJ just understands how his actions speak.

Discuss.

THis whole thread is an elaborate plot to manipulate us all into buying tube socks. You call me crazy now....
 

simulatedworld

Freshman Member
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Nov 7, 2008
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1) I do use Fe. although in a limited range. With those I'm very comfortable with and feel a genuine bond with. Otherwise, I try to be a polite person who shows a natural good will towards his fellow man/woman.

That's Fi. With practice, your dominant Ti can be "pushed" into its superego Fi for brief periods of time. (I suspect that this is how such middle functions are most often expressed.)
 

sculpting

New member
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Jan 28, 2009
Messages
4,148
It's a pain in the ass, though, having direct request for information be met by generous feeling modifiers. I know one day it's going to come back and trip me up. I'll get more and more pissed off at the obfuscation, and then one day, a little more than late, someone'll come out with a clear statement and I'll have to back off being righteous.

Hive five little baby panda.

My theory of the day is that Fi and Fe are speaking two very different languages-both verbal and nonvocalized forms of communication.

Fe doesn't speak Fi and Fi doesn't speak Fe. Yet they really kinda look the same at first so you think you are communicating. It reality you hear spanish but the person is really speaking portugease. You can pick up lots of the words and thing you sort of understand but loose much meaning.

I speak Fi and and my Fe listener doesnt understand. Then I turn up the volume and they still dont get it. Then I get resentful. The same thing happens in return when Fe tries to talk to Fi. We annoy the shit out of each other and feel as though the other is manipulating, when I think really we just keep trying harder and harder to communicate the point. We are in an Fi-Fe screaming match at some point, while smiling nicely.

Also Fe tries to control what I "feel". It tries to tell me what I should feel in a given situation. It assumes we should all internally "feel" the same or at least externally look as though we "feel" the same. It is all implied-does the Fe know they are implying this is a really good question.

It would be akin to Te telling a Ti dom what to "think". Ti has its own rules defined by localized logic it has been exposed to. If Te comes in and tries to force Ti to work according to some other rules that violate the Ti rules of logic, of course Ti gets pissed, even if the Te rules are real and in the best interest of problem solving.

I see the Te-Ti conflict all the time between INTPs and ISTJs at work.
 

ChocolateMoose123

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That's Fi. With practice, your dominant Ti can be "pushed" into its superego Fi for brief periods of time. (I suspect that this is how such middle functions are most often expressed.)

So does this mean I'm some sort of superhero?.... I'll take it!!
 

jenocyde

half mystic, half skeksis
Joined
Jan 2, 2009
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7w8
Also Fe Fi tries to control tell me what I "feel". It tries to tell me what I should feel in a given situation. It assumes we should all internally "feel" the same or at least externally look as though we "feel" the same.

fixed.

you know all this already, but I just want to remind you how smothering and presumptuous I think Fi can be sometimes. Fe can be as annoying, with all the "shoulds", too. Well, I guess we all just suck.

btw, this is how we all should feel right now: Group hug!

Maxi-Posters-Winnie-the-Pooh---Group-hug-71606.jpg
 

ReadingRainbows

Cat Wench
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fixed.

you know all this already, but I just want to remind you how smothering and presumptuous I think Fi can be sometimes. Fe can be as annoying, with all the "shoulds", too. Well, I guess we all just suck.

btw, this is how we all should feel right now: Group hug!

Maxi-Posters-Winnie-the-Pooh---Group-hug-71606.jpg

Everytime I see your avatar I want to hug you!
 

Galusha

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7?
I love how this thread starts: "ENFJs never manipulate anyone. Now go and discuss how I'm right." :rofl1:
 

Zoom

Self sustaining supernova
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Considering we have no real group of subjects for comparison - only a couple of ENFJ's have I seen here - and that this is not a reliable basis for stating what they're like... why does there seem to be a general dislike of this type?

How reliable is the typing everyone does of their friends and acquaintances - when ye talk about your boss, or friend-of-a-friend, does analyzing them like they're a puzzle to put together so they match the picture in your head really assist in understanding them as a person?

There seems to be a discrepancy here between the need for real-life examples and fact that the examples being given are mostly secondhand.

:huh: Just wondering.
 

JocktheMotie

Habitual Fi LineStepper
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Messages
8,494
Considering we have no real group of subjects for comparison - only a couple of ENFJ's have I seen here - and that this is not a reliable basis for stating what they're like... why does there seem to be a general dislike of this type?

How reliable is the typing everyone does of their friends and acquaintances - when ye talk about your boss, or friend-of-a-friend, does analyzing them like they're a puzzle to put together so they match the picture in your head really assist in understanding them as a person?

There seems to be a discrepancy here between the need for real-life examples and fact that the examples being given are mostly secondhand.

:huh: Just wondering.

There's a couple aspects to the problem, one being that any type that is underrepresented on the forum becomes a victim of bias. Second, there is a large representation of Ti-dom/aux users so there tends to be a mistrust/demonization of Fe. And third, a lot of people will associate traits to a type and think a trait means that type. For example, "Zomg, I just got manipulated! Must be an ENFJ!!!"

Also, people tend to remember bad experiences and complain about it, whereas they completely gloss over how a Fe-dom has probably made their day immeasurably better numerous times.
 

Lauren Ashley

Revelation
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Considering we have no real group of subjects for comparison - only a couple of ENFJ's have I seen here - and that this is not a reliable basis for stating what they're like... why does there seem to be a general dislike of this type?
I never got the impression that ENFJs were generally disliked here (now other types, maybe...).

How reliable is the typing everyone does of their friends and acquaintances - when ye talk about your boss, or friend-of-a-friend, does analyzing them like they're a puzzle to put together so they match the picture in your head really assist in understanding them as a person?
In my case, most people that I deal with on a daily basis have taken the MBTI (not the official, but the same ones I and probably you have). If they haven't, I make sure I slip it to them on the sly ;)
 

A Schnitzel

WTF is this dude saying?
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I never got the impression that ENFJs were generally disliked here (now other types, maybe...).

It seems as if people like ENFJs while ranting about how manipulative they are. I find the whole process odd. They're just people.
 

Lauren Ashley

Revelation
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It seems as if people like ENFJs while ranting about how manipulative they are. I find the whole process odd. They're just people.

Some ENFJs are purposely manipulative, as are some people of other types. But I don't view the way ENFJs in general approach things as manipulative. I think others are so affronted by their particular style of manipulation because it is often covert and passive-aggressive seeming.
 

Heart&Brain

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Ti has its own rules defined by localized logic it has been exposed to. If Te comes in and tries to force Ti to work according to some other rules that violate the Ti rules of logic, of course Ti gets pissed, even if the Te rules are real and in the best interest of problem solving.
I see the Te-Ti conflict all the time between INTPs and ISTJs at work.

I'm not convinced that Fi vs Fe, or Ti vs Te really work by different rules. I think it's more or less the same rules respectively: a gift for recognizing and judging sound from unsound connections of logic or of value. That would explain why NTs often understand eachother and NFs often get along great, regardless of the P/J difference.
I think they understand the language of the other. But that they differ in what they want to formulate in that language, in the goal they're interested in obtaining when they follow their T or F rules. It's what they are naturally inclined to want to DO with their abilities that defines the difference: e or i.

I have a couple of close long-time ENFJ-friends and love them, weaknesses and all. I experience them as very warm, empathic and always energising, funny and interesting to be with. A lot of self-ironic humor too and weird intuitive leaps to laugh about. They often take a personal responsibility for contributing to the wellbeing and growth of others, being great friends, co-workers, parents and partners. It's bordering of self sacrifice at times, but they don't complain much, just get worn out and try a bit harder. If they don't do it, nobody will, they feel, and people's wellbeing is too important for them to quit. They are not quitters.
This said, I have also for a long time regarded their analysis of peoples' motives and feelings as somewhat 'superficial'. It's like they often stop their analysis too soon, land it on a conventional conclusion ("Really, he just needs a girlfriend and some healthy hobbies, then he'll stop throwing TV-sets out the window because the voices have told him to."). It's not that they are being 'wrong' in general (yes, he would benefit from getting a girlfriend, but would it cure his psychosis?), but they sum up the situation in a bit simplified way that never quite hits home in my eyes, but nevertheless would be a generally workable and constructive, say, if you have to teach a class of 28 hormonally raging teens.

And my guess is that this Fe-Fi difference parallels the difference of Te-Ti. Ti supposedly wants to get it all right and principally figured out first and foremost, while Te supposedly decides at an earlier point of reasoning that enough is enough and concludes with a workable approximation that can be converted in some rational action.

Usually I'm not very bothered by the difference, though. Since my Fi 'knows' what's right anyway and I'm too ENFP'ishly all over the place seeing a load of other interesting cues in the conversation, I don't often try to hammer home my points with my ENFJs, just suggesting a possible unrecognized depth and move on.

Thus it's not really different sensibilities for value, empathy, feeling and people, as I see it. It's just different points of stopping the process, different thresholds for feeling enough satiation or satisfaction with one's assessment of what's going on. And this difference would just reflect what we are interested in using our assessments for: They want to do good in the world with it (extraversion of value), I want to grasp it in detail so it contributes to and is consistent with a whole inner network of values and relations (introversion of value), that I've been building over the years in order to meaningfully select the valuable from the worthless in the relentless bombardment of Ne-perceptions I live under.

Rings a bell, anyone?
 
Last edited:

Jonathanthegreat

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Apr 30, 2009
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I never got the impression that ENFJs were generally disliked here (now other types, maybe...).


In my case, most people that I deal with on a daily basis have taken the MBTI (not the official, but the same ones I and probably you have). If they haven't, I make sure I slip it to them on the sly ;)

Who cares if people don't like ENFJ's. The mbti isn't even respected by the APA because it lacks reliability and validity. Don't center your lives around the MBTI people.
 
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