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  1. #71
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    ^ So a positive, supportive, maybe encouragingly progressive personal environment is genuinely valuable. A requirement, even.


    (I can't be sure of the adjectives. Are they the right adjectives?)
    Yes, you got it. This is one reason I'm struggling to find a job in this Te world. They keep expecting me to be comfortable pushing and pushing in the face of discouragement and criticism, and I'm not strong enough that I find that easy (though I can do it in bursts).

  2. #72
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I wonder, how about asking

    "ENFJs: Organisational?"
    No.


    "Organisatiative"?
    No.


    *sigh, sigh, sigh, sigh*

    I think it's fair to say I fear and detest the influence of Fe in my life.
    No.

    Am I allowed to say such things?
    No.... oh all right! Go for it, tiger!



    I've got a working hypothesis as to why people who 1. don't use Fe, 2. have it as an inferior function, or 3. are T primaries freak out when confronted with it.

    It takes away your illusions of personal control. You are no more controlled than we are, but you certainly believe you are, and that belief is based on what? A pet theory of yours skewed through your lens of "truth" that wouldn't pass muster in any of your scientific or logical arenas according to your own set of definitions?
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
    Neutral Good
    EII-Fi subtype, Ethical/Empath, Delta/Beta
    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
    Inquistive/Limbic
    AIS Holland code
    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  3. #73
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    ^ interesting hypothesis.

    1) I do use Fe. although in a limited range. With those I'm very comfortable with and feel a genuine bond with. Otherwise, I try to be a polite person who shows a natural good will towards his fellow man/woman. 2) I have it as an inferior function. 3) I'm a T that doesn't "freak out" when confronted with it. I have enough experiences to empathize with said person's emotional state.

    That being said, I think it's not the Fe outburst that causes most T's to "freak out" but it's more the pressure of having to react to them in a "proper" way (i.e. socially acceptable) that causes stress.
    If it were socially acceptable to listen to them in silence while they pour their soul out than have to give hugs and words of encouragement. I think we'd be fine. I think a lot of people that meet that 1, 2, 3 criteria see someone upset and think. "Okay, there's a problem. We need to fix it." And the softness and sympathy get lost in trying to do just that.

    As far as T's being confronted with their own Fe? Hmm...I think we just don't trust it. Because feelings are fleeting and are subject to change. So we are much more hesitant to display something that may or may not be "true"...(i.e. true to ourselves - not some universal idea of truth) because the next day we might regret that expression because we don't feel that way anymore. If anything, we want our actions and expression of feeling to be consistent.
    ~luck favors the ready~


    Shameless Self-Promotion:MDP2525's Den and the Start of Motorcycle Maintenance

  4. #74
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    ENFJ's are like chocolate.

  5. #75
    Scream down the boulevard LadyJaye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    It takes away your illusions of personal control. You are no more controlled than we are, but you certainly believe you are, and that belief is based on what? A pet theory of yours skewed through your lens of "truth" that wouldn't pass muster in any of your scientific or logical arenas according to your own set of definitions?
    +1

  6. #76
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    I've got a working hypothesis as to why people who 1. don't use Fe, 2. have it as an inferior function, or 3. are T primaries freak out when confronted with it.

    It takes away your illusions of personal control. You are no more controlled than we are, but you certainly believe you are, and that belief is based on what? A pet theory of yours skewed through your lens of "truth" that wouldn't pass muster in any of your scientific or logical arenas according to your own set of definitions?
    I don't really understand the bolded. Also, I think the reason your 1,2, and 3 "freak out" when confronted with it really has to do with the significant amount of discomfort that results when faced with decisions being made on criteria that run completely opposite of your criteria. I really don't think it's because Fe shatters illusions of personal control.

    But then again I'm Ti-dom. If you'd like to talk about this pet theory more I'd be interested to hear it. All this ENFJ talk lately has me examining Fe more closely in general.



  7. #77
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    I think the ENFJ can be manipulative if he or she thinks that manipulating that person is the only way to help them.. the ENFJ's I know can be very self-righteous and act like they know what is best for everyone.

    As an anti-authoritarian, risk-taking, "my mind can think of a way to get around the system" ENTP.. I get to listen to such people a lot.. but my friends know I'm tough to change.
    MBTI Type: iNTj
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  8. #78
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    It takes away your illusions of personal control. You are no more controlled than we are, but you certainly believe you are, and that belief is based on what? A pet theory of yours skewed through your lens of "truth" that wouldn't pass muster in any of your scientific or logical arenas according to your own set of definitions?
    That first sentence is the awful one. Cuz you know, right, that Fi is personal control?

    And I kvote: "On the other hand, most of the time this process works “in private” and is expressed through actions."

    The belief that I am personally controlled comes from an actual cognitive activity: choosing (or claiming to choose) my actions according to what *I* as I alone think is right for the balance of I as I.

    Inasmuch as what *I* think is right is influenced by outside factors, experience, other people, history, all the rest of it, I am not personally controlled, I'm controlled by the outside world. However, since I process those influences and in principle pick and choose between them, this idea of personal control grows a pair of balls and will pass scientific muster. Determinism, universal outside influence is defeated by the existence of internal processing that can and will abstract away from immediate influences. And it works because the feeling, such as it is, is focused not on the outside world, but on the processes inside myself.

    Do you wish, leader, to insist that this is an illusion?

    For it to be an illusion, it must be true that ultimately, in the end, at the final accounting, if there is any feeling for anything at all, its true focus is outside the person. And that introverted feeling is feeling with a perverted focus.

  9. #79
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    From my perspective, I call manipulation when people aim at using the parts of me I have less control over. More specifically, when they aim to bypass the parts I have more direct control over.
    I would have replied earlier, but I couldn't understand much of your response. However, this part I can see.

    So, in essence, you define manipulation not by intention, but by methodology.

    An ENTJ could try and manipulate you, but because they attack via Te/Ni, you'd see it and are still essentially be free to decide if you want to play along. However, an ENFJ who isn't trying to manipulate you would still be viewed as such, because they communicate via your weak Fe, and you would be unable to decipher their intentions.

  10. #80
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    I think it might be definitional: Dominant and Auxiliary Fe aims at altering the emotional states of others. Or put in a more benign formulation: aims to directly support the emotional states of others.

    It seems this is not definitional for Dominant and Auxiliary Fi, though I note that in interaction with others, conscious Fi users will move to smooth over conflict and address feeling, perhaps indirectly.

    So what's manipulation and what's not? Probably when you don't want that person to do what they're doing about your feeling but they keep doing it anyway. It becomes a negative interaction that you'd want to say, stop that, you're pushing me around! And it might be exactly the kind of thing other people would love, but since one is just not built to enjoy or accept it, it's force. And if it's secret, undercover, not spoken overtly, it's manipulation. And it's manipulation even if one is built in ways that can accept it but currently doesn't want it.

    The more I mull over these ideas, the more it seems the only way to consistently tag ENFJs "manipulative" is to demonise Fe, to insist that Fe users never learn boundaries. But they do. Of course they do. And they push them too, fairly consistently and often. Which is a pain in the ass, but there it is. If they can't push boundaries, neither can I, so that's a freedom I'm not willing to deny them. But people should learn.

    *sigh* So I'm wrong. It's really just fear. (Legitimate fear, but fear nonetheless.)


    And, going by archetypes, ENTJs don't so much manipulate as they do pwn. They run people down paths of limited opportunity and slot them into their plans. Kinda like ENFJs but the smile is cheerful and toothy rather than caring and concerned.

    One thing I like about ENTJ "manipulation" is while they actually sometimes do say it was your own fault they did it, they identify the fault as you not having given them a pragmatic choice, not you having fucked yourself at the heels of their awesomeness that you were supposed to care about.

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