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  1. #61
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I'm going to go ahead and wonder a thing.

    See, Te and Fi, they prompt me to speak the case to other people, to present it in whatever its merit, and leave it up to them to join in. If I really want them to join in, I'll say so, and try finding ways to direct their decision toward my cause. But the strongest decision someone else can make for my cause is one they make themselves, an uninfluenced decision. Technically, obviously, NO decision is uninfluenced, all sorts of influence was brought to bear. But the assumption on my part is someone will do something akin to what I would do: they'll check with the inner judge and see if it says yea or nay. And (theoretically) if they look like they can't access an inner judge, I'll make it easy for them, I'll offer many outs, many different ways to escape, lots of reasons to say no. Because someone who hasn't chosen by themselves is someone I CAN'T RELY ON. They'll only keep going with my project if I continually prop them up. Which I can't do. They have to reliably choose for themselves.

    That's the theory. I made it sound nice and lovely.

    So now... someone... cast it in a nice light, please, I'd like to know...

    What does Fe and Ti prompt you to do?
    I don't know about other FJs.

    But for me... Fe prompts me to choose the option that is most emotionally comfortable for me and the people around me. Ti prompts me to constrain my options to things that I already know I'm competent at so that I won't look bad or let anyone down.

    When someone starts making an option sound unattractive by pointing out all the potential pitfalls, it tends to make me want to give up and not try, because I think about all those things and go, "Well, I like this option in many ways, but I might not be competent enough to cope with X, Y, and Z if they happen/are true/are expected, so I guess I shouldn't choose that. I might fail and disappoint someone. Don't want to tell them I can do it and then not be able to live up to it." So I end up fishing for an option that's emotionally neutral or comfortable, and that only demands of me things I already know I'm capable of.

    Now, if I'm in a situation where it's clear nothing is expected... I'm more willing to try to do something I don't already know I can do well in most circumstances. And I usually try to master and become comfortable with skills in such an environment before I would be comfortable saying I could do anything involving such things to anyone with expectations.

  2. #62
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    ^ So a positive, supportive, maybe encouragingly progressive personal environment is genuinely valuable. A requirement, even.


    (I can't be sure of the adjectives. Are they the right adjectives?)

  3. #63
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    You could consider every intuitive activity manipulation.
    Most ENFJs don't abuse it. You don't need to tell everything to others. Appealing to the emotions of others is not a bad thing. ENFJs paraphrase things way better.

    Compare
    A. "I need satisfaction!"
    B. "I want to be close to you."

    So which would you choose? B of course. ENFJs are likely to say that and it's much more exhilarating than the other one.

  4. #64
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hommefatal View Post
    You could consider every intuitive activity manipulation.
    Most ENFJs don't abuse it. You don't need to tell everything to others. Appealing to the emotions of others is not a bad thing. ENFJs paraphrase things way better.

    Compare
    A. "I need satisfaction!"
    B. "I want to be close to you."

    So which would you choose? B of course. ENFJs are likely to say that and it's much more exhilarating than the other one.
    Eh?

  5. #65
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    That has always been my policy. Nonetheless, you poor saps out there expecting to manipulate and be manipulated, you're operating in an environment that is alien and offensive to me.

    Are your schemes so corrupt that you cannot directly ask for cooperation? And cede me the right to answer yea or nay according to my own lights?
    The thing is, it's a mindset. You don't consider direct to be manipulative, but it's easy enough to say that it is. The direct method is just one tool of many that people have at their employ.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Eh?
    I tried to explain ENFJ behaviour.

  7. #67
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    The thing is, it's a mindset. You don't consider direct to be manipulative, but it's easy enough to say that it is. The direct method is just one tool of many that people have at their employ.
    I think perhaps this may all come down to particular focus. As a Te type, I claim to focus on tasks, not people, thus being direct means in principle presenting information not about me, nor about the other person, but about some third thing, the task. In principle then there are two people standing around judging for themselves this third thing. Fe, on the other hand, has the focus on the people. Thus, whatever is going on is directly at or in or about the two people involved, whatever cover story is used. Expressed that way... well, I dunno.

    But now, of course, the other hand: speaking as I am in this topic, I am not talking about some third thing, some task, no, I am talking about the people involved.. Which is confusing, and I don't know what it means, except that I'm using Te to talk about people, thus talk about their effect in the world, and it seems that if I keep talking this way I'll be in essence attempting to render illegitimate all Fe efforts to connect with other people. I'll perhaps even attempt to surreptitiously suggest that all people should rather be using internal judgments about what is right and wrong, and what is too much and too little when interacting with others. I'll be saying, in other words, Fi FTW! Or, Fi *is* justice! And all other things are unjust!

    From my perspective, I call manipulation when people aim at using the parts of me I have less control over. More specifically, when they aim to bypass the parts I have more direct control over.

    I note too that were I take up my Te reason hammers and start lecturing an NFJ, they can legitimately call manipulation too for I--unbeknownst to poor little frightened and just hoping for the greater good me--would be trying to bypass their higher functions. I'd be pushing them around against their better understanding of what they want.

  8. #68
    Senior Member Clonester's Avatar
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    I think it's the Fe, because a close ESFJ friend of mine is quite controlling. I can feel her try and control a situation and pry out information.

    The manipulation thing is really one of the few glaring things that bug me about some ENFJ's. There are a lot of great things about them and they can use their powers of persuasion to do great things and motivate others. I think ENFP's and INFP's work well with ENFJ's in general, particularly in relationships.
    ENFP Male: E-74% N-95% F-58% P-84% 3w2
    "I feel there are two people inside me - me and my intuition. If I go against her, she'll screw me every time, and if I follow her, we get along quite nicely." -Kim Basinger

  9. #69
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    I wonder, how about asking

    "ENFJs: Organisational?"



    "Organisatiative"?



    *sigh, sigh, sigh, sigh*

    I think it's fair to say I fear and detest the influence of Fe in my life.

    Am I allowed to say such things?

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Setting aside for the moment the fact that declaring that your entire type doesn't do something is pretty questionable, I'll respond to your actual point.

    I think what you mean is that ENFJs don't *intend* it as manipulation the way ENTJs do. You legitimately see yourselves as helping others/making a positive difference in most situations, and usually you are. So people tend to really like you, and for good reason.

    But ENFJs can easily come off as manipulative to other types who don't really understand your thought process/reasoning for your actions. And they may never understand--but the fact is ExxJ types tend to be considered more manipulative, simply because they're outwardly involved with the outside world in a goal-oriented and methodical manner. Dominant Te/Fe gives the impression of manipulation, generally to strong P types who don't take perceived threats to their freedom lightly.

    EJ: When are you going back to school?
    IP: I dunno, whenever the time feels right.
    EJ: You should really make a plan for getting your life together...it would help you in so many ways!
    IP: *thinks: "Man, this guy is really manipulative!"* Umm yeah...thanks.

    Your good intentions don't always come off the way you think they do.

    By the way, strong F types in general can have a tendency to take things too personally. Your tone sounds as if you've taken this accusation rather personally yourself, declaring outright that you, and in fact all ENFJs, are not manipulative instead of asking others for more information to determine why this perception exists--textbook J. Perhaps try actively conditioning yourself not to jump to conclusions--keep your options open. Try to give your auxiliary Ni more time to compete with dominant Fe. This will help Ps stop perceiving you as manipulative.

    But hey, look on the bright side. Of the four ExxJ types, you're probably perceived as the least manipulative. There's always that.
    I enjoyed this post

    Just saying...

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