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  1. #51
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    It's definitely about people improving. There is always room for improvement. I could get irritated with this but I'm like that too and no one is as hard on him as he is on himself. It's not task orientated unless it serves a bigger purpose, generally. There is always a long term goal or vision associated with most things. It's almost like sometimes a walk can't be just a walk. It has to be somewhere, going to something. I think this is one thing I have changed some about my ENFJ. He will walk with me for no other purpose than to walk now. He's still the best cheerleader anyone could ask for and motivation, tailored to the person, is absolutely his specialty. The manipulation comes in when they're going to motivate you whether you want it or not. I've never found this to be with malice. Never in my experience with him. They want to please and they want to be the lighthouse, the anchor, the safe harbor but they want to captain the fucking boat too. They can't do both. That makes the harmony difficult to maintain.


    It does seem a fine tightrope to walk.


    I've been wondering a thing recently about types with feeling as third or fourth function, and I wonder if it fits in this discussion.

    If feeling is under less conscious control, or is something one is less aware of, or one has other more conscious functions they prefer to work with, then the feeling is--I dunno, maybe not immature, maybe it's better called "less likely to cooperate with what it doesn't instinctively recognise"--maybe that's a source of worry about manipulation?

  2. #52
    Senior Member The Grand Chameleon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    ^
    Although, I admit to getting annoyed when one ENFJ friend recently tried to take credit for something I've sort of "accomplished". This ENFJ felt he gave me the "nudge" I needed, but I felt I needed no nudge and it was all my own inclination. But whatever...it makes him happy to feel he had something to do with it
    You're a kind soul to allow him to believe he played a role in your success. This is the fuel that keeps our kind going: the notion that we actually impacted the world and made a difference. It has something to do with self-value, or how we find meaning in the world. Perhaps though, we should be more proud of our intuition in seeing what needs to get done, than to take pride in your success, no?
    "In the game of chess, you can never let your opponent see your pieces."

  3. #53
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    I believe that interpersonal interaction inherently consists of mutual attempts at manipulation. So the only way not to manipulate people is to not interact with them.

    The only time manipulation becomes wrong is when it's used to gain something for yourself while offering nothing, or something of less than equal value in return. In other words, if it's used to cheat or mislead. Otherwise, manipulation is positive/neutral, and even expected. What do you think employers are asking for when they want you to "sell yourself" or have good "people skills"? Heck, what do you think the entire "Public Relations" department of any company is for?

    And... do I even need to mention politics and politicians? Or what you're doing when you you look for a lawyer to "represent you"? All of these concepts and terms are just nicer ways of saying manipulation.

  4. #54
    Senior Member The Grand Chameleon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I believe that interpersonal interaction inherently consists of mutual attempts at manipulation. So the only way not to manipulate people is to not interact with them.

    The only time manipulation becomes wrong is when it's used to gain something for yourself while offering nothing, or something of less than equal value in return. In other words, if it's used to cheat or mislead. Otherwise, manipulation is positive/neutral, and even expected. What do you think employers are asking for when they want you to "sell yourself" or have good "people skills"? Heck, what do you think the entire "Public Relations" department of any company is for?
    Interesting take. How would ENFJ fit into this model, then?
    "In the game of chess, you can never let your opponent see your pieces."

  5. #55
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Grand Chameleon View Post
    Interesting take. How would ENFJ fit into this model, then?
    They're simply people who have some of the best skills in this department. Just like a huge, muscled out bodybuilder (ESTx) has the best skills in the athletic department, or Nobel Prize winner (INTx) with several inventions and diplomas has the best skills in the intellectual department. Emotional manipulation is just another tool people have access to that can be used for either selfish or noble purposes. The same applies to intellect, weapons, tools, and strength.

    The idea that a person with high capacity for emotional manipulation is likely to misuse it is based on the old idea that "Power corrupts absolutely." It's the same kind of thinking that leads to the idea that muscular people are violent and go around starting fights, or that intelligent people are mad scientists that want to take over/destroy the world with an invention.

  6. #56
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I believe that interpersonal interaction inherently consists of mutual attempts at manipulation. So the only way not to manipulate people is to not interact with them.
    That has always been my policy. Nonetheless, you poor saps out there expecting to manipulate and be manipulated, you're operating in an environment that is alien and offensive to me.

    Are your schemes so corrupt that you cannot directly ask for cooperation? And cede me the right to answer yea or nay according to my own lights?




    (Or, to put it another way, you've got a strange definition of "interaction" there.)

  7. #57
    Senior Member ENFJ_Catholic's Avatar
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    I'd rather advise the captain. But hey, if you're going to make me captain...why the hell not?!

    Seriously though...self-improvement must be wanted by the person being improved. Otherwise, yes, it could be manipulation. But then the chicken and the egg question arises: when does one know he or she wants to change? Does it happen on its own or is there someone providing the catalyst for that change? And where's the line between "encouragement" and "manipulation?"

    So Where's the fricken line?! Oh.... there it is.
    "In the end it is not a matter of reason; it is a matter of love." - St. Thomas More

  8. #58
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ENFJ_Catholic View Post
    I'd rather advise the captain. But hey, if you're going to make me captain...why the hell not?!

    Seriously though...self-improvement must be wanted by the person being improved. Otherwise, yes, it could be manipulation. But then the chicken and the egg question arises: when does one know he or she wants to change? Does it happen on its own or is there someone providing the catalyst for that change? And where's the line between "encouragement" and "manipulation?"

    So Where's the fricken line?! Oh.... there it is.
    And sometimes I want a grilled cheese sandwich. Just a grilled cheese sandwich. When you listen before forming an opinion that I should probably add ham to that and I probably want a pickle on the side too, even if I don't say so, is when we start having problems.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  9. #59
    Senior Member ENFJ_Catholic's Avatar
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    Noted. Just a grilled cheese sandwich....


    ...Did you want fries with that?
    "In the end it is not a matter of reason; it is a matter of love." - St. Thomas More

  10. #60
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    I'm going to go ahead and wonder a thing.

    See, Te and Fi, they prompt me to speak the case to other people, to present it in whatever its merit, and leave it up to them to join in. If I really want them to join in, I'll say so, and try finding ways to direct their decision toward my cause. But the strongest decision someone else can make for my cause is one they make themselves, an uninfluenced decision. Technically, obviously, NO decision is uninfluenced, all sorts of influence was brought to bear. But the assumption on my part is someone will do something akin to what I would do: they'll check with the inner judge and see if it says yea or nay. And (theoretically) if they look like they can't access an inner judge, I'll make it easy for them, I'll offer many outs, many different ways to escape, lots of reasons to say no. Because someone who hasn't chosen by themselves is someone I CAN'T RELY ON. They'll only keep going with my project if I continually prop them up. Which I can't do. They have to reliably choose for themselves.

    That's the theory. I made it sound nice and lovely.

    So now... someone... cast it in a nice light, please, I'd like to know...

    What does Fe and Ti prompt you to do?

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