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  1. #41
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ENFJ_Catholic View Post
    Because it would go against who I am and what I stand for. ENFJs, by definition, desire harmony.
    Where does leadership fit in this story?

    Actually, come to think of it, where does harmony come from?

    Harmony with what?



    (Again, genuinely curious.)

  2. #42
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Where does leadership fit in this story?

    Actually, come to think of it, where does harmony come from?

    Harmony with what?



    (Again, genuinely curious.)
    You guys are AWESOME!!! You can DO IT!!! I want you here, you here and you here. GO TEAM!
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  3. #43
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Most types can be manipulative, the difference is in how they do it. NTPs will spin a web in which the only outcome that is "logical" is the one they present and must be followed, and if it isn't, that outcome isn't "logical" and therefore not what should be done. FJs tend to load questions or situations with emotional content so if you pick the "wrong" answer, you "look bad" and can get kinda trapped which can appear to be manipulation.
    haha...very true. INFPs may attach a moral value to an issue so if you go against their view you will feel immoral.

    I think ENFJs can be effective at "manipulating" because they are so charming and seem so innocuous. I don't think it's usually their goal to "manipulate", but rather to "inspire" or "encourage" someone down the path they see as beneficial (seeking the win-win situation). If anything, that's a bit presumptuous, but it's not from a lack of good intentions or a desire to control someone for your own advantage.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  4. #44
    Senior Member The Grand Chameleon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I think ENFJs can be effective at "manipulating" because they are so charming and seem so innocuous. I don't think it's usually their goal to "manipulate", but rather to "inspire" or "encourage" someone down the path they see as beneficial (seeking the win-win situation). If anything, that's a bit presumptuous, but it's not from a lack of good intentions or a desire to control someone for your own advantage.
    I believe it was stated before, but the two are often interchanged:

    inspiration/encouragement = manipulation/deceit

    Subjectivity. Those prone to the advice from a third party will go with the former, and those that look more to the self fall prey to the latter. It's like a David Blaine trick: there are those that allow themselves to be vulnerable to the "greatness", and others that believe standing in a cube of ice is characteristic of a retard. ()

    But I do admire the efforts made to defend our type.
    "In the game of chess, you can never let your opponent see your pieces."

  5. #45
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    ^
    Oh, I do think ENFJs can be manipulative , and convince themselves and others that it's just "encouragement"; but I think it's fair to say it often is only encouragement, unless it's coming from an "ENFJ gone wrong". And I agree, it's often a matter of how it is received. I can be influenced by people like anyone, but my strong values keep me true to myself, so maybe that's why I don't feel manipulated by the ENFJs in my life and don't see them as "manipulators".

    Although, I admit to getting annoyed when one ENFJ friend recently tried to take credit for something I've sort of "accomplished". This ENFJ felt he gave me the "nudge" I needed, but I felt I needed no nudge and it was all my own inclination. But whatever...it makes him happy to feel he had something to do with it
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  6. #46
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    You guys are AWESOME!!! You can DO IT!!! I want you here, you here and you here. GO TEAM!
    Task oriented?

    There's something more, I think. Something about long-term vision. The dream.

    Presumably something taking into account the idea of improvement, a focus on people improving.

    So the harmony is not static. And it is or isn't task oriented? I'd guess... in principle... no?

  7. #47
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    When I rub panda babies and pat their fuzzy bottoms while cuddling and bottle feeding them, they accuse me of manipulation. But only if I accidentally turn them upside down. They really don't care for that.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
    Neutral Good
    EII-Fi subtype, Ethical/Empath, Delta/Beta
    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
    Inquistive/Limbic
    AIS Holland code
    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  8. #48
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Heh.

    Bottle.

  9. #49
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Oh wait, is your avatar of a baby panda??? I've been looking at that thing for months trying to figure out what new breed of water rat that was. I'm being serious.

  10. #50
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Task oriented?

    There's something more, I think. Something about long-term vision. The dream.

    Presumably something taking into account the idea of improvement, a focus on people improving.

    So the harmony is not static. And it is or isn't task oriented? I'd guess... in principle... no?
    It's definitely about people improving. There is always room for improvement. I could get irritated with this but I'm like that too and no one is as hard on him as he is on himself. It's not task orientated unless it serves a bigger purpose, generally. There is always a long term goal or vision associated with most things. It's almost like sometimes a walk can't be just a walk. It has to be somewhere, going to something. I think this is one thing I have changed some about my ENFJ. He will walk with me for no other purpose than to walk now. He's still the best cheerleader anyone could ask for and motivation, tailored to the person, is absolutely his specialty. The manipulation comes in when they're going to motivate you whether you want it or not. I've never found this to be with malice. Never in my experience with him. They want to please and they want to be the lighthouse, the anchor, the safe harbor but they want to captain the fucking boat too. They can't do both. That makes the harmony difficult to maintain.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

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