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  1. #31
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    But in the cases where it is their word against yours, how do you get others to believe your side of it? The answer is, you can't. Only those who are sharp enough will believe you, and the others will stand behind the ENFJ.
    Which is why "not giving a damn" is so important. Don't care what people, who wouldn't give you the benefit of the doubt or try to understand your viewpoint, think. Personally I might laugh at the whole thing if he was my friend or talk to him about it seriously and decide what stance to take depending on how he replied. Kudos to him for being a sly fox. Lashing out at him wouldn't never do any good though...because evidently most people are easily manipulable. You just gotta know your surroundings when playing the game. But it's also very important to be sure one is not making a value of judgement. He could be clueless, or Jenocyde was just more subconsciously grumpy that day or this or that etc

    But to be clear both my last posts in this thread were meant to be humorous, not trying to make a point. I wouldn't even say this is a characteristic I'd attribute to ENFJs. I've asked in my first post what Brendan and others considered manipulative to understand the whole topic a little better.

  2. #32
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Yes of course, we know that you were being humorous and I was speaking of only 2 specific people, not the type in general. Not everyone is clever enough to pull off manipulation, or even interested enough to do it. But I just think the capability is there. Hell, even I have it when I call up on my Fe when I am bloodthirsty for revenge, which is very very seldom, but it's there.

    Yeah, and for the most part, I really don't give a damn and I tend to avoid people that make me miserable.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Tiny Army's Avatar
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    While it is unfair to say an entire type is manipulative, I think we can all agree that every type is capable of manipulation in different ways. Given that statement, ENFJ manipulation is often most effective, at least on me.
    Anger is also a feeling.

  4. #34
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    My type does not manipulate. ENFJ just understands how his actions speak.

    Discuss.
    Yeah okay... and Tiger Woods never plays golf, he just understands the game real well.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Clonester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    I'll assume you have never been in close proximity with a particularly manipulative ENFJ. NTP logic twisting is not in the same league as ENFJ subterfuge and subtle trickery. ENFJs' skills lie with people and feelings, and they know how to manipulate either or both, to their own aims. They know how to gloss over the truth and present it in an altered form that appears to be correct to those who are not keen enough to pick up on it. They are naturally dramatic and speak with conviction; they'll get under your skin to provoke an emotional reaction. People buy what they sell -- hook, line, and sinker. Those that suspect something is going on can't point it out logically so their claims look to have little veracity. All the facts and logical explanations in the world won't matter. Even the "enemy" may begin to believe them.

    This may seem like an exaggeration, but I assure you, it is not.
    How very true. Which reminds me- the ENFJ I know is a VERY successful salesperson. The cliche phrase "He could sell ice to an eskimo" very much applies.

    If I have a choice to make, and my choosing option A will be better for the ENFJ than choosing option B, he will pull out the stops to make me choose option A. How can I say no? I've chosen option B before, and he will make me feel bad. Just from a decision!
    ENFP Male: E-74% N-95% F-58% P-84% 3w2
    "I feel there are two people inside me - me and my intuition. If I go against her, she'll screw me every time, and if I follow her, we get along quite nicely." -Kim Basinger

  6. #36
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Yeah okay... and Tiger Woods never plays golf, he just understands the game real well.
    May I touch your helix?
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
    Neutral Good
    EII-Fi subtype, Ethical/Empath, Delta/Beta
    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
    Inquistive/Limbic
    AIS Holland code
    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  7. #37
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    May I touch your helix?
    I... umm.. uh

    Ah I'm caught in an ENFJ web!

  8. #38
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    I... umm.. uh

    Ah I'm caught in an ENFJ web!
    u r unner mai spelz
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
    Neutral Good
    EII-Fi subtype, Ethical/Empath, Delta/Beta
    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
    Inquistive/Limbic
    AIS Holland code
    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  9. #39
    Guerilla Urbanist Brendan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocap View Post
    this is the very definition of manipulation.


    humans: manipulative.

    manipulate |m??nipy??l?t|
    verb [ trans. ]
    1 handle or control (a tool, mechanism, etc.), typically in a skillful manner : he manipulated the dials of the set.
    alter, edit, or move (text or data) on a computer.
    examine or treat (a part of the body) by feeling or moving it with the hand : a system of healing based on manipulating the ligaments of the spine.
    2 control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously : the masses were deceived and manipulated by a tiny group.
    alter (data) or present (statistics) so as to mislead.
    There is no such thing as separation from God.

  10. #40
    Senior Member ENFJ_Catholic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    You can manipulate. Why don't you?
    Because it would go against who I am and what I stand for. ENFJs, by definition, desire harmony.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    What is your definition of manipulative (Brendan) ?

    I don't know what manipulative means , but I think I recognize the twisting of words MDP2525 mentioned in the ENFJs I know. Also a slight predisposition for double-standards maybe.
    Double-standards do not promote harmony.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    manipulate |m??nipy??l?t|
    verb [ trans. ]
    1 handle or control (a tool, mechanism, etc.), typically in a skillful manner : he manipulated the dials of the set.
    alter, edit, or move (text or data) on a computer.
    examine or treat (a part of the body) by feeling or moving it with the hand : a system of healing based on manipulating the ligaments of the spine.
    2 control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously : the masses were deceived and manipulated by a tiny group.
    alter (data) or present (statistics) so as to mislead.
    Having influence over people (i.e. leading them) does not mean they are being manipulated. How that influence is used (and how it is gotten) is what makes or doesn't make some action manipulative, as Brendan notes above.

    Unscrupulous: not scrupulous : unprincipled.
    Unprincipled: lacking moral principles.

    Morality and having or not having a well-formed moral view on human interaction (i.e. life) is not a type-specific thing. It's across all spectrums and all personality types. Let's not try to bash one or another.
    "In the end it is not a matter of reason; it is a matter of love." - St. Thomas More

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