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  1. #231
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    INFJ manipulation is crafty and serpentine, but it's OK because I seek mine out when I want to plot and scheme.

    There is an element of guilt-tripping involved, I think that's just a general FJ thing I wouldn't even say SFJ vs. NFJ it's just plain ol FJ. All types guilt trip, but the way it goes down may be dependent on type. The manner in which it's done is dependent on SFJ vs. NFJ.

    NFJ manipulation is more psychological in nature, but specifically INFJ, let's see.

    When I've seen my INFJ friend purposely manipulate someone I feel like she's doing it in defense and not out of being a manipulator. For example her old boss used to pluck her head and call her a silly girl (she's a grown ass woman), but then cover it up as a funnyHAHA and act like he was just teasing her and that she couldn't take a joke.

    I don't know how to really describe she's just really deft at maneuvering situations to her liking by build up. For example since she never asks for something when she does ask if she doesn't get it she'll make the person feel guilty for denying her what she wants. But she'll purposely never ask for this something so she can at a later date ask for what she wants and being denied would make the other person look mean.

    I more or less view it as they're very good at creating a very specific system of dealing with people but it's very planned out, done with the end goal in mind they move accordingly. Damn, I'm usually good at coming up with examples and I have some but the way I've seen two INFJs do it, it's just so below the radar, I'd have to explain the situation out for you to see the chain of events and how they moved at important junctures in order for it to make sense. If I take one isolated incident it would be like, what's wrong with that.

    INFJ manipulation is like a movie you have to watch several times in order to figure out what the hell happened!
    i totally know what you mean and i totally do this. i don't think of it as manipulation, because it's, to me, more of a patient waiting for the opportunity to come back around to reap justice, haha, than manipulation. manipulation for me implies twisting things overtly to your benefit. but if you just wait, usually opportunities present themselves again, and if you use your memory and apply it to said opportunity, it can be the sweetest recompense ever, for both parties. i usually do it more for humor and fun than out of doling out vengeance.

    so, if someone puts one over on me, i'll scan and see if i can get back at them at that moment, if not, i'll quietly be on my way. but i'll def file it away to pull out at the next opportunity........which will be sweet. (at least for me )

    gawd. i hate giving away my secrets.
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  2. #232
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    So if I am being polite to, let's say, not let children hear me curse their mother out, that's ok? But if I'm being polite to get you to be nicer to me back, that's not ok? All politeness has intent. And if intent is the thing that separates deceit from truth... you see where I'm going with this.

    All I'm saying is that lying is "bad" but there are some times when lying may be good, or helpful - as in the sense of being polite and not choosing the words that you actually want to use. In the same way, manipulation is "bad" but there are times when it's harmless. Your child needs vitamins so you promise him dessert tomorrow if he eats his vegetables today . Manipulation, but so terrible?
    Sure, as far as manipulation goes, I'd say there is a white-lie equivalent. White-manipulation (but that sounds a bit off).

    But the "for their own good" way of thinking might be self-deceptive in some cases, so the person can give themselves an excuse for doing something they don't want to admit is harmful.

  3. #233
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Sure, as far as manipulation goes, I'd say there is a white-lie equivalent. White-manipulation (but that sounds a bit off).

    But the "for their own good" way of thinking might be self-deceptive in some cases, so the person can give themselves an excuse for doing something they don't want to admit is harmful.
    I wanted to use the term white-manipulation, but I was trying to be polite and also trying to see if I could manipulate you into saying it by comparing it to a white lie. hahaha... Ok, the word is out there now and is fair game.

    Anyway, I agree that there is an ickyness factor around the word "manipulation", and there is a creep out factor with the phrase "for your own good", but I think that stems from pride. I get most offended when I realize that someone took away my ability to think for myself - much more than the offense of whatever it was they tried to make me think.

  4. #234
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    Is there any personality type immune to using manipulation? Human beings manipulate. It's what they do naturally. The different personality types would have different ways of doing it perhaps, but I can't see how any one personality type is more or less prone to it. It seems more an aspect of the individual's basic morality in how they use their functions.

    An INFJ with corrupt judgment would be just as likely to manipulate for evil and selfish reasons as a ESTP with sound judgment would be to manipulate for more noble reasons.

    There's also no personality type immune to lying to self to justify their motives and actions in manipulation or being blind to it. There are no panceas in human nature.

  5. #235
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Why must there be a moral judgment assigned with manipulation? It's a part of this world, whether we like it or not.

    I've seen manipulation used to destroy an ESTP's will (by an INFJ no less, and proteanmix is 100% right about it being like a movie you have watch several times to see how it was done), and I've seen an INFJ take someone who had no direction and slowly build him up to someone with a good job and healthier sense of self. Both used essentially the same techniques, but one built up and the other destroyed.

    To fear all manipulation is to be unable to differentiate between the above two examples. Why not just accept manipulation as intrinsically neutral, and start learning enough about it so you can recognize when it's being used for good and when it's being abused? Then you can decide if you want to go with the flow, or put a stop to it.

  6. #236
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I wanted to use the term white-manipulation, but I was trying to be polite and also trying to see if I could manipulate you into saying it by comparing it to a white lie. hahaha... Ok, the word is out there now and is fair game.
    Oh.. okay I'm trying to be polite right now and not white-insult you for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    Why not just accept manipulation as intrinsically neutral, and start learning enough about it so you can recognize when it's being used for good and when it's being abused?
    I think it's an issue of proportions. Manipulation, more often than not, isn't used for something positive, or at least that's the common perception. I'd say it's like 25%/75% used for something good/bad, according to my barometer.

  7. #237
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    I think it's an issue of proportions. Manipulation, more often than not, isn't used for something positive, or at least that's the common perception. I'd say it's like 25%/75% used for something good/bad, according to my barometer.
    I think that speaks more of human nature than manipulation itself. Manipulation is a technique, and it has no moral value until a human gives it one through intent.

    Can we say that people misuse and abuse manipulation? Sure. Also, the actions we use to carry out our manipulations can sometimes be morally questionable, like lying. However, manipulating by being polite seems like a non-issue to me, since being polite is generally an admirable trait anyway.

  8. #238
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    I think that speaks more of human nature than manipulation itself. Manipulation is a technique, and it has no moral value until a human gives it one through intent.

    Can we say that people misuse and abuse manipulation? Sure. Also, the actions we use to carry out our manipulations can sometimes be morally questionable, like lying. However, manipulating by being polite seems like a non-issue to me, since being polite is generally an admirable trait anyway.
    If a technique is more often than not used for something negative, does it not deserve a negative stigma?

  9. #239
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Good afternoon, Mr Dog. I will be your manipulator today. OK w/ U? OK, let's begin:

    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    I think that speaks more of human nature than manipulation itself. Manipulation is a technique, and it has no moral value until a human gives it one through intent.
    Permission.


    Permission is perhaps what distinguishes manipulation from guidance, yeah?

  10. #240
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    If a technique is more often than not used for something negative, does it not deserve a negative stigma?
    I don't agree with the 25%-/75%+ barometer reading. I'd put it closer to 50/50. However, since that's *my* personal barometer reading, I decided not to pursue it. I guess it's relevant though, because it matters if it's a perception that manipulation is usually used for negative, or a reality.

    Manipulation is usually rather mundane and benign. When someone tells me "I love you", and wants me to say it back, that's manipulation. That sort of thing seems to be the most common form of it, and we usually don't bother noticing or caring unless it steps on one of our personal toes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Permission is perhaps what distinguishes manipulation from guidance, yeah?
    Sure. However, permission can be, and often is, manipulated from you. In fact, the best manipulators know that the best way to manipulate is to first get someone's permission. At that point, what is it?

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