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  1. #11
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Kalach, don't even. NTs and INTJs as well are extremely good at learning what I call 'pressure points' if they put their mind to it. "If I push here and pull there and insinuate this then..voila, the reaction I was hoping to get out of this person!"
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  2. #12
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Kalach, don't even. NTs and INTJs as well are extremely good at learning what I call 'pressure points' if they put their mind to it. "If I push here and pull there and insinuate this then..voila, the reaction I was hoping to get out of this person!"
    Really? The dead eyes aren't a giveaway?

    I shall have to study up.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    What is your definition of manipulative (Brendan) ?

    I don't know what manipulative means , but I think I recognize the twisting of words MDP2525 mentioned in the ENFJs I know. Also a slight predisposition for double-standards maybe.

  4. #14
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Setting aside for the moment the fact that declaring that your entire type doesn't do something is pretty questionable, I'll respond to your actual point.

    I think what you mean is that ENFJs don't *intend* it as manipulation the way ENTJs do. You legitimately see yourselves as helping others/making a positive difference in most situations, and usually you are. So people tend to really like you, and for good reason.

    But ENFJs can easily come off as manipulative to other types who don't really understand your thought process/reasoning for your actions. And they may never understand--but the fact is ExxJ types tend to be considered more manipulative, simply because they're outwardly involved with the outside world in a goal-oriented and methodical manner. Dominant Te/Fe gives the impression of manipulation, generally to strong P types who don't take perceived threats to their freedom lightly.

    EJ: When are you going back to school?
    IP: I dunno, whenever the time feels right.
    EJ: You should really make a plan for getting your life together...it would help you in so many ways!
    IP: *thinks: "Man, this guy is really manipulative!"* Umm yeah...thanks.

    Your good intentions don't always come off the way you think they do.

    By the way, strong F types in general can have a tendency to take things too personally. Your tone sounds as if you've taken this accusation rather personally yourself, declaring outright that you, and in fact all ENFJs, are not manipulative instead of asking others for more information to determine why this perception exists--textbook J. Perhaps try actively conditioning yourself not to jump to conclusions--keep your options open. Try to give your auxiliary Ni more time to compete with dominant Fe. This will help Ps stop perceiving you as manipulative.

    But hey, look on the bright side. Of the four ExxJ types, you're probably perceived as the least manipulative. There's always that.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  5. #15
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Some aren't. Some are. They know how to get a person to do just what they want, and they know it. Before the person even understands what's going on, they have been accused of saying and doing things they had no idea of. And I wish you luck if a particularly manipulative ENFJ decides that you are the "enemy." Such a title is usually bestowed by snubbing the ENFJ, knowingly or unknowingly. When you have become the "enemy," they will turn all of your friends against you, and even some of your family if need be. They will blame you of doing all the evil things they are guilty of, plus more.

    Unfortunately the manipulative ENFJs make it hard for the other ENFJs because people notice a pattern and begin to believe they are all that way.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Clonester's Avatar
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    I know one male ENFJ. He's very much a leader. And he is quite manipulative, but not in a malicious way (as mentioned) and I don't think he intends it as such. He's quite well meaning about it. He has given me a push or two in the right direction. At the same time my guard is almost always up around him because I never know when he's going to be manipulative. If he sees there's something I'm not doing he tries to change it to make me a better person. What he doesn't realize sometimes is that there is usually a reason I'm not doing that. I already do way too much as it is, I'm not a robot.

    Typically I just have to come out and say why I'm not doing said thing to improve myself. And usually he'll understand then. Sometimes it hurts his feelings. It's the only way I've found around it thus far.

  7. #17
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Most types can be manipulative, the difference is in how they do it. NTPs will spin a web in which the only outcome that is "logical" is the one they present and must be followed, and if it isn't, that outcome isn't "logical" and therefore not what should be done. FJs tend to load questions or situations with emotional content so if you pick the "wrong" answer, you "look bad" and can get kinda trapped which can appear to be manipulation.

    The reason ENFJs can get labeled as manipulators could be because this forum has a large representation of NTP Fe-tards.



  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Some aren't. Some are. They know how to get a person to do just what they want, and they know it. Before the person even understands what's going on, they have been accused of saying and doing things they had no idea of. And I wish you luck if a particularly manipulative ENFJ decides that you are the "enemy." Such a title is usually bestowed by snubbing the ENFJ, knowingly or unknowingly. When you have become the "enemy," they will turn all of your friends against you, and even some of your family if need be. They will blame you of doing all the evil things they are guilty of, plus more.

    Unfortunately the manipulative ENFJs make it hard for the other ENFJs because people notice a pattern and begin to believe they are all that way.
    I did that on accident once.

    ENFJ's have to be especially careful what signals they send out. I've always been respected in whatever social circles I've been in. When I give an opinion on something, people listen.

    I was thirteen or fourteen and my best friend since first grade was being insufferable at a large get-together at my house. Instead of getting angry or talking to him about it like I now would, I didn't want to deal with him at the time and just threw him out of my house.

    I meant to get rid of him and deal with his antics later. However, it came across to everyone there as, "I'm no longer vouching for you. I'm done and I wash my hands of you. Now get out of my house and don't come back."

    I didn't realize at the time that people were willing to lose him as a friend to keep me as one. I didn't realize that throwing him out of my house would force people to choose between us. (That was really wordy, but I don't know how else to put it.)

    Overnight he went from my right hand man to exiled as literally everyone took my side. Teenagers are cannibals. He was pretty much eaten alive the rest of that summer. It was surreal seeing the reasons and lengths people took trying to "ingratiate" themselves with me.

    Long story short, I cooled off and we later reconciled.

    I now only use my powers for good, I promise!

    Edit- To address the topic, I don't consider myself manipulative. Even in the above story, I wasn't the conniving or mercurial in any sense. I had been crossed and got mad. Sure, in retrospect I handled it poorly and took it too far but, I was young and stupid and I haven't done anything similar ever since. I learned my lesson and now avoid ultimatums all together.
    Last edited by Anthony; 07-08-2009 at 09:57 AM. Reason: Needed to address the topic

  9. #19
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Most types can be manipulative, the difference is in how they do it. NTPs will spin a web in which the only outcome that is "logical" is the one they present and must be followed, and if it isn't, that outcome isn't "logical" and therefore not what should be done. FJs tend to load questions or situations with emotional content so if you pick the "wrong" answer, you "look bad" and can get kinda trapped which can appear to be manipulation.

    The reason ENFJs can get labeled as manipulators could be because this forum has a large representation of NTP Fe-tards.
    I'll assume you have never been in close proximity with a particularly manipulative ENFJ. NTP logic twisting is not in the same league as ENFJ subterfuge and subtle trickery. ENFJs' skills lie with people and feelings, and they know how to manipulate either or both, to their own aims. They know how to gloss over the truth and present it in an altered form that appears to be correct to those who are not keen enough to pick up on it. They are naturally dramatic and speak with conviction; they'll get under your skin to provoke an emotional reaction. People buy what they sell -- hook, line, and sinker. Those that suspect something is going on can't point it out logically so their claims look to have little veracity. All the facts and logical explanations in the world won't matter. Even the "enemy" may begin to believe them.

    This may seem like an exaggeration, but I assure you, it is not.

    An ENFJ did this to an INTP friend of mine, and he is still trying to pick up the pieces more than a year later. And I have at least a few ENFJs in my immediate family, so I know how they get when unhealthy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
    I now only use my powers for good, I promise!
    That's not what I meant. I meant consciously turning other people against a person, people, or thing.

  10. #20
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    My type does not manipulate. ENFJ just understands how his actions speak.
    this is the very definition of manipulation.


    humans: manipulative.

    we fukin won boys

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