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  1. #101
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Know what, I already had a reply ready moments after I posted that last message in this thread, then I went to sleep and mostly forgot it, but it was something like:

    "If you really do practice not being understood, one practical outcome is, y'know, not being understood."

    And there was a second sentence, but I forgot it. Wish I could remember, it was a good sentence. It had a subtext, something about management being more trustworthy than trust, but it didn't come out and say that directly. To my mind, that sentence, whatever it was and lost now, would have been more effective than this paragraph.

    It's a pain in the ass, though, having direct request for information be met by generous feeling modifiers. I know one day it's going to come back and trip me up. I'll get more and more pissed off at the obfuscation, and then one day, a little more than late, someone'll come out with a clear statement and I'll have to back off being righteous.



    "As extraverts, their contacts are wide ranging. Face-to-face relationships are intense, personable and warm, though they may be so infrequently achieved that intimate friendships are rare."

    Have you ever considered (OUTSIDE YOURSELF) that some of us are dealing with all hell breaking loose at home and don't WANT to debate some nameless faceless persistently critical entity on the internet?! "Obfuscation"? REALLY?! Ever consider you don't get engaged because you aren't being respectful? That you're couching your OWN language to get a reaction? Didn't Fe take your dignity or something? Wow, how logical is THAT statement.

    Really. I've borne your irrational crap and listened without trying to form a negative opinion of you in the name of understanding and being open-minded, but I'm done. You think you're right, so go ahead and be right. After all, being right in the internet is such a victory.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
    Neutral Good
    EII-Fi subtype, Ethical/Empath, Delta/Beta
    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
    Inquistive/Limbic
    AIS Holland code
    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  2. #102
    Scream down the boulevard LadyJaye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    Have you ever considered (OUTSIDE YOURSELF) that some of us are dealing with all hell breaking loose at home and don't WANT to debate some nameless faceless persistently critical entity on the internet?! "Obfuscation"? REALLY?! Ever consider you don't get engaged because you aren't being respectful? That you're couching your OWN language to get a reaction? Didn't Fe take your dignity or something? Wow, how logical is THAT statement.

    Really. I've borne your irrational crap and listened without trying to form a negative opinion of you in the name of understanding and being open-minded, but I'm done. You think you're right, so go ahead and be right. After all, being right in the internet is such a victory.
    +1

  3. #103
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    To my knowledge, Fe doesn't definitively have to do with most of the things that have been attributed to it here.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  4. #104
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    The CEO of a start up I worked for was ENFJ (I tested him). He was the consummate salesman.

    He spoke in a very facile way about emotions and often used the personal story of his suffering and his journey to connect with the target audience (women). It became clear to me immediately (because I am skeptical of well-worn sob stories) that while what he was saying may have been factually true, he was using it to influence, to encourage identification. To connect, but to connect for a very strategic purpose, which was to influence. Because I saw the goal as wringing money from vulnerable women looking for answers, I deemed his behavior as manipulative.

    This, to me, is the essence of Fe. This ability to connect. Fe in the hands of a good person can be used to lead, in the hands of a weak person, to manipulate. But, it is powerful, especially since so many people want and desire identification and connection. But with this power comes responsibility.

    With regard to the ENFJ's on this thread, why do you take issue with people who have found ENFJ's to be manipulative? Why does this notion offend? I am curious as to the vehemence of the reaction and why it elicits such a strong response.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  5. #105
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Also.

    1. Manipulation is not bad necessarily.
    2. ENFJ's may be acting in what they feel to be someone's best interests when they manipulate.
    3. ENFJ's may not be aware of their own abilities to influence other people as it is likely unconscious and natural in expression.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  6. #106
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    Didn't Fe take your dignity or something? Wow, how logical is THAT statement.
    No, he said Fe stole his sex drive and his dignity. That statement stood out to me too. Weird.

  7. #107
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    I never got the impression that ENFJs were generally disliked here (now other types, maybe...).
    ENFJ's are actually the most liked and popular type, I would say. This is why I find their occasional persecution paranoia inexplicable. It's almost as if it's not enough to be loved and sought after, they must also never be criticized as criticism is equivalent to dislike somehow?
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  8. #108
    Senior Member The Grand Chameleon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    With regard to the ENFJ's on this thread, why do you take issue with people who have found ENFJ's to be manipulative? Why does this notion offend? I am curious as to the vehemence of the reaction and why it elicits such a strong response.
    Personally, it elicits a stronger response when people aren't aware of my manipulative tendencies. It makes me question, "naivety vs. ignorance," and the confidence level the individual possesses in general. Even though I might be skilled in my art, to be completely oblivious is almost an impossibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Also.

    1. Manipulation is not bad necessarily.
    2. ENFJ's may be acting in what they feel to be someone's best interests when they manipulate.
    3. ENFJ's may not be aware of their own abilities to influence other people as it is likely unconscious and natural in expression.
    Assuming all three points to be true, you've effectively neutralized any further attempt to make myself appear unhealthy. I don't know whether to thank you or to turn sour.
    "In the game of chess, you can never let your opponent see your pieces."

  9. #109
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Grand Chameleon View Post
    Personally, it elicits a stronger response when people aren't aware of my manipulative tendencies. It makes me question, "naivety vs. ignorance," and the confidence level the individual possesses in general. Even though I might be skilled in my art, to be completely oblivious is almost an impossibility.
    Yea, I don't have a problem with manipulation per se. I do have a problem with dishonesty.

    Assuming all three points to be true, you've effectively neutralized any further attempt to make myself appear unhealthy. I don't know whether to thank you or to turn sour.
    You don't strike me as unhealthy. You cop to your weaker points.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  10. #110
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    Have you ever considered (OUTSIDE YOURSELF) that some of us are dealing with all hell breaking loose at home and don't WANT to debate some nameless faceless persistently critical entity on the internet?!
    Briefly.

    "Obfuscation"? REALLY?! Ever consider you don't get engaged because you aren't being respectful?
    Um, briefly.

    That you're couching your OWN language to get a reaction? Didn't Fe take your dignity or something? Wow, how logical is THAT statement.
    Straightforwardly so. Experience based. (Woe is me.)

    Really. I've borne your irrational crap and listened without trying to form a negative opinion of you in the name of understanding and being open-minded, but I'm done. You think you're right, so go ahead and be right. After all, being right in the internet is such a victory.
    It's even better than that: the victory is only in my mind.

    And, oh hey, "victory"?


    But yeah, I've taken a very defensive, even aggressive posture on "understanding", and I start from a biased position.

    So?




    And this reply constitutes a fallback position, one that comes into being when cooperation fails, and not the position I'd prefer to take. That I have spoken harshly, attempted disrespectful analysis, and been mean is not actually something to defend too strongly, but there has been some meaningful goal in there too.

    So it's apology time?

    I'm not sure that it is. Not sure that it isn't.




    Waitaminute... I've been banging on about Fe Doms for, like, 6 months or more so I can make people feel bad? I've been seeking retribution?

    Could be.

    Or maybe I just got lucky and it's a side effect.

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