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  1. #91
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ne-Monster View Post
    Also Fe Fi tries to control tell me what I "feel". It tries to tell me what I should feel in a given situation. It assumes we should all internally "feel" the same or at least externally look as though we "feel" the same.
    fixed.

    you know all this already, but I just want to remind you how smothering and presumptuous I think Fi can be sometimes. Fe can be as annoying, with all the "shoulds", too. Well, I guess we all just suck.

    btw, this is how we all should feel right now: Group hug!


  2. #92
    Cat Wench ReadingRainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    fixed.

    you know all this already, but I just want to remind you how smothering and presumptuous I think Fi can be sometimes. Fe can be as annoying, with all the "shoulds", too. Well, I guess we all just suck.

    btw, this is how we all should feel right now: Group hug!

    Everytime I see your avatar I want to hug you!
    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    St. Stephen took rocks and St. Sebastian took arrows. You only have to take some jerks on an internet forum. Nut up.

  3. #93
    Senior Member Galusha's Avatar
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    I love how this thread starts: "ENFJs never manipulate anyone. Now go and discuss how I'm right."

  4. #94
    Self sustaining supernova Zoom's Avatar
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    Considering we have no real group of subjects for comparison - only a couple of ENFJ's have I seen here - and that this is not a reliable basis for stating what they're like... why does there seem to be a general dislike of this type?

    How reliable is the typing everyone does of their friends and acquaintances - when ye talk about your boss, or friend-of-a-friend, does analyzing them like they're a puzzle to put together so they match the picture in your head really assist in understanding them as a person?

    There seems to be a discrepancy here between the need for real-life examples and fact that the examples being given are mostly secondhand.

    Just wondering.

  5. #95
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentium View Post
    Considering we have no real group of subjects for comparison - only a couple of ENFJ's have I seen here - and that this is not a reliable basis for stating what they're like... why does there seem to be a general dislike of this type?

    How reliable is the typing everyone does of their friends and acquaintances - when ye talk about your boss, or friend-of-a-friend, does analyzing them like they're a puzzle to put together so they match the picture in your head really assist in understanding them as a person?

    There seems to be a discrepancy here between the need for real-life examples and fact that the examples being given are mostly secondhand.

    Just wondering.
    There's a couple aspects to the problem, one being that any type that is underrepresented on the forum becomes a victim of bias. Second, there is a large representation of Ti-dom/aux users so there tends to be a mistrust/demonization of Fe. And third, a lot of people will associate traits to a type and think a trait means that type. For example, "Zomg, I just got manipulated! Must be an ENFJ!!!"

    Also, people tend to remember bad experiences and complain about it, whereas they completely gloss over how a Fe-dom has probably made their day immeasurably better numerous times.



  6. #96
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentium View Post
    Considering we have no real group of subjects for comparison - only a couple of ENFJ's have I seen here - and that this is not a reliable basis for stating what they're like... why does there seem to be a general dislike of this type?
    I never got the impression that ENFJs were generally disliked here (now other types, maybe...).

    How reliable is the typing everyone does of their friends and acquaintances - when ye talk about your boss, or friend-of-a-friend, does analyzing them like they're a puzzle to put together so they match the picture in your head really assist in understanding them as a person?
    In my case, most people that I deal with on a daily basis have taken the MBTI (not the official, but the same ones I and probably you have). If they haven't, I make sure I slip it to them on the sly

  7. #97
    WTF is this dude saying? A Schnitzel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    I never got the impression that ENFJs were generally disliked here (now other types, maybe...).
    It seems as if people like ENFJs while ranting about how manipulative they are. I find the whole process odd. They're just people.
    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    sheesh humans! for realz

  8. #98
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Schnitzel View Post
    It seems as if people like ENFJs while ranting about how manipulative they are. I find the whole process odd. They're just people.
    Some ENFJs are purposely manipulative, as are some people of other types. But I don't view the way ENFJs in general approach things as manipulative. I think others are so affronted by their particular style of manipulation because it is often covert and passive-aggressive seeming.

  9. #99
    Senior Member Heart&Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ne-Monster View Post
    Ti has its own rules defined by localized logic it has been exposed to. If Te comes in and tries to force Ti to work according to some other rules that violate the Ti rules of logic, of course Ti gets pissed, even if the Te rules are real and in the best interest of problem solving.
    I see the Te-Ti conflict all the time between INTPs and ISTJs at work.
    I'm not convinced that Fi vs Fe, or Ti vs Te really work by different rules. I think it's more or less the same rules respectively: a gift for recognizing and judging sound from unsound connections of logic or of value. That would explain why NTs often understand eachother and NFs often get along great, regardless of the P/J difference.
    I think they understand the language of the other. But that they differ in what they want to formulate in that language, in the goal they're interested in obtaining when they follow their T or F rules. It's what they are naturally inclined to want to DO with their abilities that defines the difference: e or i.

    I have a couple of close long-time ENFJ-friends and love them, weaknesses and all. I experience them as very warm, empathic and always energising, funny and interesting to be with. A lot of self-ironic humor too and weird intuitive leaps to laugh about. They often take a personal responsibility for contributing to the wellbeing and growth of others, being great friends, co-workers, parents and partners. It's bordering of self sacrifice at times, but they don't complain much, just get worn out and try a bit harder. If they don't do it, nobody will, they feel, and people's wellbeing is too important for them to quit. They are not quitters.
    This said, I have also for a long time regarded their analysis of peoples' motives and feelings as somewhat 'superficial'. It's like they often stop their analysis too soon, land it on a conventional conclusion ("Really, he just needs a girlfriend and some healthy hobbies, then he'll stop throwing TV-sets out the window because the voices have told him to."). It's not that they are being 'wrong' in general (yes, he would benefit from getting a girlfriend, but would it cure his psychosis?), but they sum up the situation in a bit simplified way that never quite hits home in my eyes, but nevertheless would be a generally workable and constructive, say, if you have to teach a class of 28 hormonally raging teens.

    And my guess is that this Fe-Fi difference parallels the difference of Te-Ti. Ti supposedly wants to get it all right and principally figured out first and foremost, while Te supposedly decides at an earlier point of reasoning that enough is enough and concludes with a workable approximation that can be converted in some rational action.

    Usually I'm not very bothered by the difference, though. Since my Fi 'knows' what's right anyway and I'm too ENFP'ishly all over the place seeing a load of other interesting cues in the conversation, I don't often try to hammer home my points with my ENFJs, just suggesting a possible unrecognized depth and move on.

    Thus it's not really different sensibilities for value, empathy, feeling and people, as I see it. It's just different points of stopping the process, different thresholds for feeling enough satiation or satisfaction with one's assessment of what's going on. And this difference would just reflect what we are interested in using our assessments for: They want to do good in the world with it (extraversion of value), I want to grasp it in detail so it contributes to and is consistent with a whole inner network of values and relations (introversion of value), that I've been building over the years in order to meaningfully select the valuable from the worthless in the relentless bombardment of Ne-perceptions I live under.

    Rings a bell, anyone?
    Last edited by Heart&Brain; 07-14-2009 at 11:11 AM. Reason: precision

  10. #100
    Senior Member Jonathanthegreat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    I never got the impression that ENFJs were generally disliked here (now other types, maybe...).


    In my case, most people that I deal with on a daily basis have taken the MBTI (not the official, but the same ones I and probably you have). If they haven't, I make sure I slip it to them on the sly
    Who cares if people don't like ENFJ's. The mbti isn't even respected by the APA because it lacks reliability and validity. Don't center your lives around the MBTI people.

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