[NF] "do what you love, and MONEY will come" - not really?

[niki]

because when I do think about this very recently, I have finally come into a conclusion:

certain jobs will make you gain a lot of money, in relatively much more quicker & easier ways,
while certain other jobs, no matter how much efforts you've put in 24-hours per day, you can only gain 'that' much money, and wouldn't be able to get rich, especially, super-rich!

the former is probably most typical big-$$$ businesses jobs/careers, like Property, stock trading, Real-estate, Finance,
and also 'prestigious' conventional jobs like lawyer, top engineering, and maybe computer programming (this latter job would even still depending much on where u live?)

while the latter is probably what many 'normal, conventional, or conformist' folks would call: "jobs with very little or no prospect" ,
ie: teacher, massage therapist,
and perhaps especially, most 'Art'-related jobs, ie: musician, painter, writer. aside from they're also very very risky, and seemingly have very very little chances of getting rich, or super-rich from it!

I was talking to my INFP brother about this,
and I was saying that hence, it is in some ways kinda 'ironic' when we look at the amounts of EFFORTS these two groups spent, and the PAYBACK that they're getting, is not the same correlation.

that's why, along with that, now I also can't be completly agree with the popular saying (especially in those self-help & motivational books) :
"you gotta do what you love, and money will come"
this even including the famous Robert Kiyosaki & Donald Trump, saying this!

my take on that is, no, when you DO what you LOVE, it will not always yield a lot, and big amount of money!
in fact, some jobs/careers are just 'that' .....they still leave you with financial burdens, and even, lacking financially! I believe this is also a fact that most of us probably have also observed in reality, isn't it?

some jobs gives you huge money, in relatively quicker, easier ways.
while some other jobs give you less/lack of money, BUT, perhaps the 'good' trade-off is other things, and usually unseen, ie: happiness, lack of stress level, befriend with a lot variety of interesting people, experiencing new things, freedom to wander around, etc.

what do you guys think on this one?
and which one would u choose (or have already chosen) ??
please share your opinion.

 

[Alwar]

I personally value independence and a good environment over higher pay.

 

[Laurie]

It's usually just supply and demand. If a lot of people can do the job, there is less pay to go with it. If few people can do the job, there is more pay associated with it.

It can be painful to admit it works that way, but if you look, that is what it is.

 

[cascadeco]

No, I don't think doing what you love will by default bring money. It may bring other richer rewards (as you point out) but obviously not always money. You know, there's that other phrase, 'The starving artist...'

The reality is that there simply aren't enough niches - there isn't enough of an economic need, etc - for everyone to pursue their dreams, and for everyone to pursue what they're really passionate about (well, given the nature of how the world turns and the actual jobs/needs in existence).

That said, I think a certain amount of stubbornness, willpower, and drive (as well as talent and passion) can yield results over time -- i.e. if you refuse to give up, and focus all of your energies on bringing about your business, or your dreams, results will often follow. You just have that 'time' factor - how long will it take, and what are you willing to sacrifice or tolerate in the short term? Will you give up because eventually you need to make ends meet and pay for your bills/living situation (survival) somehow? Will you conclude it's simply not worth it to 'pursue what you love', and you decide instead to look at the job thing more pragmatically, that it's a necessity, and life can be found outside of the job?

As for what I've 'chosen', I choose happiness/satisfaction/fulfillment over money, hands down. I've never been one to pursue money. That said, I require it to survive, and I haven't found anything yet that fulfills me. This is a neverending issue of mine...career stuff. I oscillate back and forth when it comes to my opinions on it -- viewing the Reality of things can really put a damper on your belief that something better is possible/feasible, but I do know others can, and do, manage to find a way to make things work out for them. So I don't think it's impossible either. I know most jobs out there aren't for me, and I'd be quite unhappy/unsatisfied with them, so I keep at it and keep trying to find that perfect balance, or I keep changing jobs every few years. It'll be a lifelong 'process' for me, I think - unless I eventually hone in on something I truly enjoy AND can make a living off of.

 

[nozflubber]

the idea that money will always comes from doing what one loves comes from one basic notion: money follows human commerce. If you're doing what you love, people will talk about it and trade about it, and you'll eventually get paid by SOMEONE

Basically, if you're not making money off of something or you're not able to receive any kind of alms, then you don't really love it, or you don't love it for the right reasons. Money follows proper passion, not improper passions such as vanity or what have you.

the world just seems cutthroat about it because money doesn't always come in the proportions you expect it to ALL of the time. This is why God created Artisans, afterall - someone's gotta promote you if you are truly PASSIONATE about what you create. If your creations generate nothing in the human soul, then they probably suck, which means you just don't really love it to begin with. Find something else, if that's the case.


Street musicians are the perfect example, here. Money just FOLLOWS from what they do, because they truly LOVE sitting on that street corner, ALL DAY, just playing licks of jazz or what have you. People notice that and WANT to pay that person, because it makes sense. If you're there because "its a job, its income", well guess what? Of course that money wont follow, because you HATE it and just want money.

Its about proper passions - money follows from them, not before them.

 

[Snow Turtle]

Isn't the message meant to represent the fact that with passion comes the ability to become successful. I don't believe that many people have passion for work though. Most things have things they can progress towards: Teaching -> Positions with higher responsability... Therapy -> Bigger self business etc.

 

[Kyrielle]

what do you guys think on this one?
and which one would u choose (or have already chosen) ??
please share your opinion.

It all depends on whether or not you measure success by how much money you make.

I do not, and many other people who are teachers or massage therapists or artists do not as well.

Some value the wealth of being satisfied at the end of the day that they've done something they enjoy. Some really have no choice but to have a job with "no prospect", but as a result of being forced to live more frugally, probably do not equate success with money.

So no, doing what you love will not always mean you rake in tons of dollars. But is that why you're really doing what you love? Isn't the point to do what you love so you enjoy yourself? And isn't the point of making a career out of something you love born out of a desire to do what you love as much as you can? (Because otherwise, more time would be spent in a job you do not lenjoy.) In this sort of mindset, doesn't money play a lesser role and would it not, somehow, show up if you were smart about what you were doing?

Anyway, personally, I'd rather have a job where when I wake up in the morning, I look forward to the work I'm going to do that day. With that sort of mindset, I'm not looking to get rich, but I am looking to be able to live comfortably (not scraping by, having a little bit of extra money left in the budget).

And I wouldn't call other people who equate money with success as "normal, conventional, or conformist". Just call them people who equate money with success. It's not a good or a bad thing. That's just want those people want out of life. The part quoted sounds a little derrogatory.

 

[Zoom]

I figured out what was important to me, then thought about what lifestyle would suit those things best and financially maintain what I want, along with activities I participate in. I knew that money was important to me only so far as I want to have savings, some pleasure money, and not have to worry about money every single month.

I fully expect to work into my "elderly" years and don't really like the idea of retirement, because to me that implies that I haven't made it a priority to do what I love during my "younger" years as well as have a focus on work - I don't think one sphere or the other should suffer in the long-term. A balance is what I really want.

So for me, when I looked at my passions and money, I knew I could go into a tech-based field (engineering, among others) and make a lot of money - and be miserable, because I consider them fantastically boring in practice (though I love the study of all of them). I needed something where I was using my hands, mind, and which I could leave outside the door when I went home, because I don't want to be on call for my job more often than not.

 

[Udog]

Doing what you love is a good start, but you still have to be smart about it if money is a priority. You will need to find something that either brings high value to someone that can pay you well for it, or bring value to a large number of people.

One reason many people never make it to the next level is that they become one dimensional in their abilities. For example, unless you are the best damn artist in your area, you will need more than just raw talent alone to make it rich.

To counter this, one trick is to develop many passions, and find a way to combine them in a unique way. This has the potential to separate you from the crowd, and you won't even need to be the best at skill A anymore. You make yourself special in your ability to combine skill A with B.

For example, it's rarely the best artists that make it to the big times. Instead, it's usually a good artist (think 80% percentile) that also is very good in another skill, like marketing himself.

Its about proper passions - money follows from them, not before them.

That was a neat post. I hadn't heard anything quite like that before.

 

[garbage]

I just tried to get all of my career goals to line up in the best way possible. I'd been interested in video game design from a young age, and I ended up going into simulation after being left completely unimpressed by engineering. Simulation conceptually overlaps greatly with gaming, it still allows me to be creative and adaptable, and it has an advantage in that it actually pays the bills.

(I'm toying around with also picking up a side gig as an independent game developer, though.)

I could get an even higher-paying job if I went corporate, but I would then lose the level of flexibility and the good environment that I have now. So that's where I have drawn the line.

 

[niki]

I just tried to get all of my career goals to line up in the best way possible. I'd been interested in video game design from a young age, and I ended up going into simulation after being left completely unimpressed by engineering. Simulation conceptually overlaps greatly with gaming, it still allows me to be creative and adaptable, and it has an advantage in that it actually pays the bills.

(I'm toying around with also picking up a side gig as an independent game developer, though.)

I could get an even higher-paying job if I went corporate, but I would then lose the level of flexibility and the good environment that I have now. So that's where I have drawn the line.

if I may know,
what do you do now?
and how did you able to get into the 'fantastic' job that you're having now?
perhaps i could also get inspired from your reply/advices.
thanks

 

[Quinlan]

If you are "doing what you love" then you will have a clear edge on others in your field that are just there for the money, therefore success and probably money will follow from loving that work.

The problem is almost no one becomes an artist for the money (hah!) so the whole field is full of people who love it. So love for art is common amongest people in that field so goes unrewarded but genuine love for something like finance/property trading/beancounting etc. is much rarer and will get noticed and rewarded in job interviews and promotions so money will follow.

So really it should be "do what you love and money will follow (within the context of fields where true passion is lacking)"

 

[garbage]

if I may know,
what do you do now?
and how did you able to get into the 'fantastic' job that you're having now?
perhaps i could also get inspired from your reply/advices.
thanks

University researcher, specializing in simulation. Well, "specializing" in simulation is a somewhat odd concept since simulation is broad-based and covers a variety of environments and subject matter. I've worked with shuttle risk assessments, patent trends, missiles, weather, psychology, coursework development, tools for hospitals.. the list goes on.

I was studying engineering and co-opping for a local engineering company, and I hated it. Toward the end of my degree, I just decided to shift gears, and I'd heard that one of my professors was into simulation. I figured I might want to give that a try.

I emailed him and asked about a potential position in the research center that employed him, and I got hired on as an undergraduate student assistant. I got paid much less than I did at my previous job, but part of me knew where it was going to take me. It was a risk, nonetheless.

I graduated and decided to stick with it. Started my master's degree program and became a graduate research assistant, and shortly switched over to a full-time position. That was a risk, too, since it was unheard of for a research center to employ non-Ph.D.'s to full-time positions. I worked very hard as a full-time employee and a full-time student, and eventually graduated while rising through the ranks some more. Upon graduation, I started pursuing a Ph.D. with our research center's director as my advisor. I'm set to graduate in three years or so, depending on my pacing.

Non-Ph.D. researchers don't make nearly as much as their colleagues out in the corporate workforce, but the Ph.D.'s are very greatly valued in research. That's what I'm banking on, just as I'd banked on simulation being a good fit for me and taking on a full-time position being a good choice.


You'll notice here that the common theme all along has been taking a few risks, working my ass off, doing a bit of forward planning, and sacrificing somewhat for future gain. I could have easily entered the engineering workforce at twice what I initially made at the research center, but I would have hated it in the long run.

Within the past year, I've finally gotten to a position where I can slow down a bit. I'm still thinking about the future to a certain extent, but I'm more lax about it. It takes a long while and a lot of effort to get to that position.

 

[Stanton Moore]

All I have to say is that if you don't engage in your passion for a purpose higher than money, you may as well not do it at all...music is about love, but also about self-sacrifice.
And nobody cares what Beethoven was worth when he died.

 

[Kingfisher]

i don't think doing what you love and making money are tied to each other at all. sometimes they are compatible, sometimes not.
the real question is whether or not you have the strength to keep doing what you love, even when it is utterly failing financially.

 

[Galusha]

I love making money. I will use the money to do things I love more than working, like traveling. if everyone does what they like, no one will take up the crappy jobs, and society will fall apart. just think of your unsavory way of making money as maintaining the base of society. good job!

 

[INTJMom]

...
that's why, along with that, now I also can't be completly agree with the popular saying (especially in those self-help & motivational books) :
"you gotta do what you love, and money will come"
this even including the famous Robert Kiyosaki & Donald Trump, saying this!

my take on that is, no, when you DO what you LOVE, it will not always yield a lot, and big amount of money!
in fact, some jobs/careers are just 'that' .....they still leave you with financial burdens, and even, lacking financially! I believe this is also a fact that most of us probably have also observed in reality, isn't it?

some jobs gives you huge money, in relatively quicker, easier ways.
while some other jobs give you less/lack of money, BUT, perhaps the 'good' trade-off is other things, and usually unseen, ie: happiness, lack of stress level, befriend with a lot variety of interesting people, experiencing new things, freedom to wander around, etc.

what do you guys think on this one?
and which one would u choose (or have already chosen) ??
please share your opinion.

I agree with you.
Doing what you love doesn't guarantee an income large enough to live on.
It depends on what you love, I guess.
I love music, but it's extremely difficult to live on the income unless you become a big recording and performing artist.

I am at a place in my life where I now have to enter the full-time work force, and I am struggling with what direction to take.
At first I was looking at the "high-pay, in-demand" in my state, but then I realized that all those jobs also have high-stress, and at my age, that's probably not the right thing for me... even if I am "smart enough" to learn how to do those things.
I think I'd rather learn to live on a modest income and have a lower stress job.

However, I still want to do something I "love". I certainly wouldn't want to do something I'd hate! How much will I love it? A little, I hope.

 

[niki]

All I have to say is that if you don't engage in your passion for a purpose higher than money, you may as well not do it at all...music is about love, but also about self-sacrifice.
And nobody cares what Beethoven was worth when he died.

i love what you said there.
thanks for reminding me again..
it's just that sometimes, I feel that I've gotta be 'practical' too, even in the field that I love,
but I believe that even when my music won't "sell" , it's not like I'm going down to the road of starvation 'till dying..
'cuz I know that it's not that bad, based from a lot of testimonies from my musician friends, from "zero to hero" !
so I know it's possible to get financially-enough from music, but not super-rich (unless if I'm extremely very lucky, but then again, making music should not be solely about that, ie: desperately want to be famous).

University researcher, specializing in simulation. Well, "specializing" in simulation is a somewhat odd concept since simulation is broad-based and covers a variety of environments and subject matter. I've worked with shuttle risk assessments, patent trends, missiles, weather, psychology, coursework development, tools for hospitals.. the list goes on.

I was studying engineering and co-opping for a local engineering company, and I hated it. Toward the end of my degree, I just decided to shift gears, and I'd heard that one of my professors was into simulation. I figured I might want to give that a try.

I emailed him and asked about a potential position in the research center that employed him, and I got hired on as an undergraduate student assistant. I got paid much less than I did at my previous job, but part of me knew where it was going to take me. It was a risk, nonetheless.

I graduated and decided to stick with it. Started my master's degree program and became a graduate research assistant, and shortly switched over to a full-time position. That was a risk, too, since it was unheard of for a research center to employ non-Ph.D.'s to full-time positions. I worked very hard as a full-time employee and a full-time student, and eventually graduated while rising through the ranks some more. Upon graduation, I started pursuing a Ph.D. with our research center's director as my advisor. I'm set to graduate in three years or so, depending on my pacing.

Non-Ph.D. researchers don't make nearly as much as their colleagues out in the corporate workforce, but the Ph.D.'s are very greatly valued in research. That's what I'm banking on, just as I'd banked on simulation being a good fit for me and taking on a full-time position being a good choice.


You'll notice here that the common theme all along has been taking a few risks, working my ass off, doing a bit of forward planning, and sacrificing somewhat for future gain. I could have easily entered the engineering workforce at twice what I initially made at the research center, but I would have hated it in the long run.

Within the past year, I've finally gotten to a position where I can slow down a bit. I'm still thinking about the future to a certain extent, but I'm more lax about it. It takes a long while and a lot of effort to get to that position.

thanks a lot for sharing this, greed!
yes, those things you've mentioned seems to be the common theme , the ingredients for "success".
if i may ask, though, referring to "forward planning",
have you ever , at one point of time, or several points of time perhaps,
have a lot of unsure, doubts, and uncertainty, and FEAR if what you're planning would turn out to be WRONG choice ??..
if yes, then how did you eliminate these annoyingly-negative feelings?
because this is what making me often procrastinate so much,
fear if i've invested a lot of time, efforts, energy, and Planning,
only to find that it's probably a DEAD-end, or WRONG path at the end
(ie: "I shouldn't have taken this road, and wasted my time doing this") ?...
how to make yourself very sure of your own Plannings?
did you do a lot of researches? (but if only research & research, but not dare to take risks to DO it, then it's also going to be a series of meaningless, endless-researches?) , or just kinda "go with the flow" ?
what is the best here?
thanks.

 

[Scott N Denver]

University researcher, specializing in simulation. Well, "specializing" in simulation is a somewhat odd concept since simulation is broad-based and covers a variety of environments and subject matter. I've worked with shuttle risk assessments, patent trends, missiles, weather, psychology, coursework development, tools for hospitals.. the list goes on.

Could what you do be accurately described as "numerical simulation" or "numerical approximation"? Would it be stuff like Finite elements, ODE modeling, PDE modeling, lots of linear algebra??? Most things that I've seen that get "modeled" are usually situations described with ODE/PDE. I wish I knew more about stuff like that. I'm working on learning more about it.

Thanks!
Scott

 

[garbage]

if i may ask, though, referring to "forward planning",
have you ever , at one point of time, or several points of time perhaps,
have a lot of unsure, doubts, and uncertainty, and FEAR if what you're planning would turn out to be WRONG choice ??..

Always.

I'm not certain of a lot. And when I'm very sure of something, I end up questioning why I'm so sure of it, so I end up doubting it. I can see situations from all possible angles, including how they might completely and utterly fail.

All I can do is.. well, do it anyway.

I had a lot of anxiety about buying my place while I was jobless. I wasn't sure whether taking on a full-time research position was a good idea. I was anxious about what I was going to do when I graduated with my masters; whether I'd have to move to find decent work.

With most of these decisions, I collected all of the data that I could. It was my safety blanket. It was reassuring. But the data I had to collect with each decision dwindled as I began to trust myself.

How do you get over it? Just do something. Practice just.. making decisions. An analogy that I will often repeat: It's easier to steer a car in the right direction if it's actually moving.

Turns out it's not so bad once you get it going, but starting the engine and easing onto the gas for the first time can be nerve-wracking.

It's hard, I know. I've been paralyzed by indecision more times than I can count.

Have you ever faced a situation where you've got a huge list of chores that need to be done, but then you start one and end up knocking the rest out? It's kind of the same principle.

Could what you do be accurately described as "numerical simulation" or "numerical approximation"? Would it be stuff like Finite elements, ODE modeling, PDE modeling, lots of linear algebra??? Most things that I've seen that get "modeled" are usually situations described with ODE/PDE. I wish I knew more about stuff like that. I'm working on learning more about it.

There's a lot of math in what I do, but methods such as finite element modeling and differential equations are just a few simulation techniques that are available. I'd love to talk about this kind of thing some more.. maybe I'll start a(nother) blog..

I also don't just do simulation.. there's a lot of business development, talking to customers, logistics.. so on and so forth. Par for the course when you take on lots of short-term projects.