[Fi] Are Fi and selfishness related?

[BlahBlahNounBlah]

I probably shouldn't be here (I have NT cooties), but this seems to just be a philosophical difference.


Friendships that don't involve sacrifice, cooperation, caring, equality, and exchange aren't worth having, for me. Although I can understand the Fi point of view, I simply don't share it.

 

[PeaceBaby]

^ People, shake your heads. This is NOT about Fi.

You can only take MBTI so far! You can't extrapolate to this extent!

 

[lillyofthevalley]

I have an INFP friend and though I really like her as a person she is quite a bad friend for the simple reason that she is very selfish. I am wondering if that is related to her having Fi as a dominant function and her using it in an unhealthy way.

I'll try to put her behaviour into words. My friend often goes by how she feels about things on the inside, for example if she feels like she needs to be around people she will be happy to spend time with you, if she wants her own space she will make it clear to you and not spend time with you even if you as a friend might need her company. I in contrast would spend time with a friend in need whatever my mood is simply because this person is my friend and I believe in sometimes sacrificing your own needs for someone else. My friend doesn't seem to get the concept of sacrifice at all, her own wellbeing and "inner feeling compass" determine how she acts, other people's feelings don't really become part of the equation.

She also doesn't seem to get simple rules of friendship that are to me clear as day. For example I broke my foot last year and had to spend a lot of time at home and though I told her about my accident via email pretty soon and she lived just twenty minutes walk from my flat it didn't occur to her at all to pay me a visit during these weeks. I know that if my good friend had an accident and was homebound I would be over there in a flash to cheer her up. And I think it's much to easy to blame it on me being an extroverted feeler and her being an introverted feeler, I do think a lot of IxFPs would visit a sick person too, is her use of Fi just very unhealthy? (And no, her behaviour has nothing to do with her not liking me or trying to avoid me, the simple self-sacrificial rules of friendship just don't seem to occur to her.) She is also the kind of person that I wouldn't ask for help if I really needed it because I would be too scared that she "just wouldn't feel like helping me", hiding that sentiment rather badly underneath a thin coat of superficial empathy to quieten her conscience.

Any thoughts on that? (And if anyone wonders (since I am an INFJ) I haven't doorslammed her yet (she probably wouldn't even notice since I haven't heard from her since I moved away from my home country seven months ago and I am just tired of always making the first step), she used to be one of my best friends at high school so I am more cautious about just cutting every contact completely off but she is working her way straight into the "I just couldn't be arsed to spend any more time and effort on you, you are invisible to me." INFJ zone)

She doesn't sound very INFJ to me. She also doesn't seem that in to you as a friend.

 

[Tiltyred]

I probably shouldn't be here (I have NT cooties), but this seems to just be a philosophical difference.


Friendships that don't involve sacrifice, cooperation, caring, equality, and exchange aren't worth having, for me. Although I can understand the Fi point of view, I simply don't share it.

That's exactly what I meant to say, except you were succinct and did it better.

Peacebaby, I didn't see your hugs until after I'd posted. I know I sound big and bold but I was actually shaking a little bit after I'd finished ranting and I did appreciate the support, 'cause I was expecting to get slammed.

 

[PeaceBaby]

^ more for you

Every NF thread must devolve to , that's the rule!

 

[Tiltyred]

I'm wit dat.

 

[PeaceBaby]

I admire you for posting your feelings on the issue; you have a lot of passion and it comes through online.

IRL, there are plenty of nice people, but we're all unique and very few are mind-readers, so when you need something, ask. And I've learned that even though some friendships ebb and flow over time, the friendship is always there with those certain special people, even if you don't hear from them for a while. All these threads, these connections, can be maintained with even the lightest touch. It's not always about doing, it's about being too.

These friendships are always special because they were always special.

 

[Udog]

Friendships that don't involve sacrifice, cooperation, caring, equality, and exchange aren't worth having, for me. Although I can understand the Fi point of view, I simply don't share it.

I'm an Fi user, and I don't share that point of view, either. Of course friendships require those things.

Why must this point be continuously overlooked?

 

[BlackCat]

I'm an Fi user, and I don't share that point of view, either. Of course friendships require those things.

Why must this point be continuously overlooked?

People want to point the finger. "Fe is awesome! It's about making other people feel welcome and provided for! Fi is just self centered! I'm awesome!"

I'm an Fi user too and don't share that point of view either.

No I wasn't directing that statement toward anyone in particular.

 

[Tiny Army]

All I'm saying is that if those are what your standards of friendship are then your friend needs to know this in advance. For me friends are people who don't demand or expect things of you. They want to share experiences and information with you, be that personal information (their relationship problems) or ANY information (defragmenting hard drives, building pillow forts and theories about the space-time continuum). I don't remember my own birthday half the time and really don't expect other people to. I cook for people all the time but not because they brought me gifts or for any reason other than they were my friend and I wanted to cook for them. I also do not expect anything in return for the cooking because I don't believe that cooking for someone automatically means they owe you food, nor will I cook for someone if they turn up at my house sans ingredients and demanding food.

If a friend I haven't heard from in six years tells me she's going to be in town I don't refuse because she didn't respond to my e-mails way back when. I do not know the circumstances that may have resulted in those many ignored e-mails and will never assume it is because the other person doesn't care. If a friend hasn't returned more than three phone calls I wait for them to call me because they surely have their reasons and I trust that they will tell me those the next time I hear from them, whenever they may be.

What I'm saying is I don't see how your standard is any better or more desirable than mine and I think it's a good illustration of the differences between our types.

 

[PeaceBaby]

People want to point the finger. "Fe is awesome! It's about making other people feel welcome and provided for! Fi is just self centered! I'm awesome!"

I'm an Fi user too and don't share that point of view either.

No I wasn't directing that statement toward anyone in particular.

Fe is NOT necessarily the self-sacrificing function everyone believes it to be.

My Fe-dom friends seem capable of telling me when they are too tired, too over-extended, too busy to do something for me or with me. They have no problem with this, and I am so glad! I am the one who gets the big guilty feelings at times because I feel like I SHOULD always be helpful to others, even to the point of neglecting myself.

Thus said, I think the enneagram could be way more helpful here - it tries to pinpoint the emotional motivation behind our actions and might do a better job of understanding the situation rather than simply looking at MBTI alone.

A good quote to reflect on: "People with developed Fe tend to create implied bargains with other people about what sort of role they will play in regard to each other. They make an opening "bid" where they cast the other person in a positive role, e.g. "Would you be willing to spare a moment of your time to share your expertise with me?", casting the other person as an expert and a very important person. The implied contract is that if they treat you as a very important person, then you will each have very satisfying social roles. But if you get out of line, then you will withdraw your willingness to cast them in that role. Each line where you play the other person up thus creates a sort of debt: now they "owe" you some response that makes you important."

--http://greenlightwiki.com/lenore-exegesis/Extraverted_Feeling

 

[BlahBlahNounBlah]

All I'm saying is that if those are what your standards of friendship are then your friend needs to know this in advance. For me friends are people who don't demand or expect things of you. They want to share experiences and information with you, be that personal information (their relationship problems) or ANY information (defragmenting hard drives, building pillow forts and theories about the space-time continuum). I don't remember my own birthday half the time and really don't expect other people to. I cook for people all the time but not because they brought me gifts or for any reason other than they were my friend and I wanted to cook for them. I also do not expect anything in return for the cooking because I don't believe that cooking for someone automatically means they owe you food, nor will I cook for someone if they turn up at my house sans ingredients and demanding food.

If a friend I haven't heard from in six years tells me she's going to be in town I don't refuse because she didn't respond to my e-mails way back when. I do not know the circumstances that may have resulted in those many ignored e-mails and will never assume it is because the other person doesn't care. If a friend hasn't returned more than three phone calls I wait for them to call me because they surely have their reasons and I trust that they will tell me those the next time I hear from them, whenever they may be.

What I'm saying is I don't see how your standard is any better or more desirable than mine and I think it's a good illustration of the differences between our types.

I don't expect anything of casual friends, and I prefer that they expect nothing of me.


But close friends are different. That's what makes them close friends. If someone has no expectations of me, what makes them any different from some person I could meet in 5 minutes? I could walk outside right now and meet such a person. What is holding that relationship together?


Within my means, I will do anything for anyone, friend or no friend. And I never expect or even want anything in return. But if I consider someone a friend, I need to know they will think of me and be there for me even when it's not convenient for them. And I'll want to do this for them in return because I love them.

 

[heart]

I don't expect anything of casual friends, and I prefer that they expect nothing of me.


But close friends are different. That's what makes them close friends. If someone has no expectations of me, what makes them any different from some person I could meet in 5 minutes? I could walk outside right now and meet such a person. What is holding that relationship together?


Within my means, I will do anything for anyone, friend or no friend. And I never expect or even want anything in return. But if I consider someone a friend, I need to know they will think of me and be there for me even when it's not convenient for them. And I'll want to do this for them in return because I love them.

I agree with this. People in my inner circle are different from people outside it and I do have higher expectations of myself in how I treat them.

 

[BlahBlahNounBlah]

Fe is NOT necessarily the self-sacrificing function everyone believes it to be.

My Fe-dom friends seem capable of telling me when they are too tired, too over-extended, too busy to do something for me or with me. They have no problem with this, and I am so glad! I am the one who gets the big guilty feelings at times because I feel like I SHOULD always be helpful to others, even to the point of neglecting myself.

Thus said, I think the enneagram could be way more helpful here - it tries to pinpoint the emotional motivation behind our actions and might do a better job of understanding the situation rather than simply looking at MBTI alone.

A good quote to reflect on: "People with developed Fe tend to create implied bargains with other people about what sort of role they will play in regard to each other. They make an opening "bid" where they cast the other person in a positive role, e.g. "Would you be willing to spare a moment of your time to share your expertise with me?", casting the other person as an expert and a very important person. The implied contract is that if they treat you as a very important person, then you will each have very satisfying social roles. But if you get out of line, then you will withdraw your willingness to cast them in that role. Each line where you play the other person up thus creates a sort of debt: now they "owe" you some response that makes you important."

--http://greenlightwiki.com/lenore-exegesis/Extraverted_Feeling

ENFJs make me nervous.

 

[Tiny Army]

I do agree with heart but I should probably add that I consider my inner circle incredibly small. It contains a total of four people. I don't know if they're generally bigger than that...?

Again, I will go out of my way for people, even more so if they ask but if it is demanded of me (with passive aggression, sulking, yelling, guilt tripping. A demand is different than a request.) I always get pissed. I also do not expect any of my friends to do things for me without my asking, ever.

 

[BlahBlahNounBlah]

if it is demanded of me (with passive aggression, sulking, yelling, guilt tripping. A demand is different than a request.) I always get pissed. I also do not expect any of my friends to do things for me without my asking, ever.

Complete agreement!



Anyone who dares to guilt me into anything gets the blue screen of death.

 

[proteanmix]

OK, this is based on Tiny Army's posts but not necessarily directed at her, do Fi users have little to no expectations of the implicit expectations of the group of people you consider "friends?" Just the general concept of a friend: someone you can talk to, someone you can share yourself with, someone you can rely on, etc. How do Fi users believe those assumptions about the role a friend has in your life play out practically?

Let's take birthdays for example. OK, you don't care about birthdays, they're empty and meaningless and you could care less if anybody remembers your birthday. If you have a friend who does not share your beliefs about birthdays would put aside your own personal beliefs and do something special with or for your friend, regardless of your personal value about that event is? Is it enough that your friend values it so therefore you'll value it as well? Or is it a matter of if it has no value to you, very little would move you towards valuing this hypothetical event?

Would you not be touched that even though you've made it clear that you don't do birthdays, someone remembered yours and did something special for you: a gift, a handwritten note, anything? Or would you interpret the acknowledgment of the birthday as some form of manipulation on the friends part, chastising you for not valuing theirs? Because I think people are talking past each other but really saying the same thing. I don't believe Fi users reason this way, but I'm being fairly extreme to make a point. If the friend is upset that because you have a personal belief that recognition of birthdays isn't a necessary component of friendship, how do you broach that topic with your friend? Do you show your appreciation for your friend in other ways that would make the friend more understanding of your belief? What type of communication is going on on the part of the Fi user in communicating the lack of significance of certain acts to others in order for there to be middle ground.

I agree that some needs and expectations should be articulated explicity but would you really want someone to hand you a list of Things I Expect From You As A Friend? Some of these things seem, well obvious. But I also realize what seems obvious to me is not always obvious to other people.

So for another example you're becoming good friends with a person and they say explicitly, "You know birthdays are really important to me and I enjoy celebrating mine and my friends. I expect you to do something for me on my birthdays and not forget." The tone isn't harsh or demanding, just a simple statement of expectation. I'm being dead serious, I'd look at that person like a rabbit just jumped out of their left ear. I don't know, that seems so presumptuous to me. It seems to me people are expecting a level of communication that is highly atypical in most interactions.

 

[BlahBlahNounBlah]

Would you not be touched that even though you've made it clear that you don't do birthdays, someone remembered yours and did something special for you: a gift, a handwritten note, anything?

If I were to specifically say I don't want a gift and someone got me one anyway, I'd think they dig too deep with the cotton swabs.


I don't say one thing while secretly meaning another.


If someone told me they didn't want a gift, I wouldn't get them one. And I'd expect the same courtesy.


However, if someone loves a holiday that I don't celebrate or believe in, I'd do everything I could to make that a great day for them. My feelings about the holiday don't matter. It's about them and making them happy.

 

[proteanmix]

If I were to specifically say I don't want a gift and someone got me one anyway, I'd think they dig too deep with the cotton swabs.


I don't say one thing while secretly meaning another.


If someone told me they didn't want a gift, I wouldn't get them one. And I'd expect the same courtesy.

I'm not talking about that. But perhaps people think this is still a covert attempt at manipulation? Are you misunderstanding intent?

 

[Wonkavision]

I haven't read through the responses to the original post, but here's my take on it:

Recently, with the help of a therapist, I have learned that you can't really do anything to change another person.

All you can do is work on yourself.

That's it.

Plan and simple.

If you feel like you bend over backwards to please people, and constantly put other people's needs above your own, and then you resent them for not doing the same for you---you might want to look up "Co-dependence".

Are You Codependent?