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[Fi] Are Fi and selfishness related?

Amargith

Hotel California
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I think it all comes down again to different approaches to friendship and communication styles and if you live in a small or a big town.

As a general rule I wouldn't like someone just to come over unannounced (which doesn't happen in London anyway, everyone just lives too far away and is far too busy, so the person you are visiting will most likely not be at home anyway), text me and see if I am free and I will be happy to spend time with you. That's just the way things work here.

What I was talking about in my initial post was not communication styles anyway, it was about a friend just being plain selfish and self-absorbed, if it would have been her style to keep a friendship going by dropping in unannounced I am sure we could have found a middle ground but if the other person doesn't invest anything at all in the friendship how is it supposed to survive?

By simply remembering the last encounter you had :)
I remember my friends fondly because when I think back of the times I spend time with them, it floods me with the emotions I felt at that time. I have friends that I haven't seen in 10 years and speak to every 3 months maybe on msn. They know though that if I can help them, I will.

I have one ENFP friend of mine that I see every now and again. Whenever we try to meet up it takes us a month, coz we never plan and we both have busy lifes. But it doesn't matter. We know we'll get there. And when one of us has troubles, even after 2 years of almost no contact, we'll pick up the phone and help each other out. She did at the end of last year, as she adopted some kittens and needed some advice from me. I walked her through it for three months. And I in turn asked her around the same time to help me with my books of my previous business. She said she would. In april this year, I went like..oh right, the books? She went: oh sure, give it here, I'll take care of it. Meanwhile we almost hadn't seen each other in 6 months, with only two failed attempts of actually trying to see each other. Life just gets in the way .

Then, with the books thing, I had to hand them over and see her, so we had a blast going shopping, torturing her INTJ boyfriend and having conversations of 6 hours straight, way past midnight and our bedtime. But it was fun :D

Now, the books have been taken care of, I just have to go pick em up, though I don't see that happening any time soon. I know she's busy (she's a teacher), so I leave her alone, and I know I'll see or hear her again in the not so nearby future. When though, is always the question and not important :)
 

jenocyde

half mystic, half skeksis
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Did the mom poke holes in the condoms? Skip her birth control on purpose? Refused to get an abortion despite financial concerns? Leaving your family because "it's no fun anymore" =/= having a family dropped in your lap without your consent. If someone leaves a baby in a basket on your doorstep do you now HAVE to take care of it? Is calling social services a "Me, me, me!" attitude? You are repeatedly failing to recognise that these community standards of friendship mean squat. Friendship is a personal thing to me. It is a sharing of ideas and a mutual respect for one another's boundaries. Breaking down those boundaries isn't intimacy to me. It is invasion.

the end result of sex is that a child can be born. Unless it was rape, you consent to the possibility. Nothing is 100% safe, except for abstinence.

I agree with the rest, though.
 

Lightyear

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Observe all the factors involved before making an irrelevant analogy. Oh wait! You can't do that as soon as you're presented with a new situation. You're an Ni dom! Analogies that are only relevant to you are how you roll!

I also think it's unfair to say that every Fe user I have ever met in my entire life was unhealthy. I have simply noticed a pattern of behaviour that they seem to think is completely normal but that I find entirely repulsive. This being the continued imposition of their personal standards onto me and my life.

So you as an Ne dom are of course completely able to change your mind after being presented with a new situation, best example is that you hold on to your stereotyping of Fe users even though the last few posters pointed out to you that your interpretation is often just plain wrong; especially introverted Fe users respect boundaries very much and won't just invade your life unannounced. Most of us would hate it if someone else did that to us!

Honestly it feels kind of pointless to further the discussion with you, I don't care if people disagree with me or try to explain to me their point of view but you are just shouting and using people's personality types against them and to take a jab at them.
 

Lauren Ashley

Revelation
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I don't care if people disagree with me or try to explain to me their point of view but you are just shouting and using people's personality types against them and to take a jab at them.

Pretty much. I don't think it is accurate or fair to make such statements. It's like if I were to say "Of course you're flaky and childish -- you're Ne dom!"
 

jenocyde

half mystic, half skeksis
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So you as an Ne dom are of course completely able to change your mind after being presented with a new situation, best example is that you hold on to your stereotyping of Fe users even though the last few posters pointed out to you that your interpretation is often just plain wrong; especially introverted Fe users respect boundaries very much and won't just invade your life unannounced. Most of us would hate it if someone else did that to us!

Honestly it feels kind of pointless to further the discussion with you, I don't care if people disagree with me or try to explain to me their point of view but you are just shouting and using people's personality types against them and to take a jab at them.

To be fair, she said:

I also think it's unfair to say that every Fe user I have ever met in my entire life was unhealthy. I have simply noticed a pattern of behaviour that they seem to think is completely normal but that I find entirely repulsive. This being the continued imposition of their personal standards onto me and my life.

We're all guilty of stereotyping, cut her some slack - she's speaking about the people she knows.
 

Lauren Ashley

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To be fair, she said:

We're all guilty of stereotyping, cut her some slack - she's speaking about the people she knows.

I think Lightyear's comment was [mostly] in response to this:

Observe all the factors involved before making an irrelevant analogy. Oh wait! You can't do that as soon as you're presented with a new situation. You're an Ni dom! Analogies that are only relevant to you are how you roll!
 

sculpting

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You remind me of these dads who leave their families because this whole thing is just no fun anymore, they actually have to commit and go beyond a "Me, me, me!" attitude. Grow up.

I totally wouldnt visit the person in the hospital. I dont send cards at christmas. I hate baby showers. I am anti Fe myself, as asometimes I just don't understand I should do these things and sometimes I just dont give a fuck-it is socially contrived nonsense. I show my love in other ways.

Not sure if this is Fe... I have an ENFP friend who does shit like that constantly. I would never dream of stopping by unannounced.

Dominant Fe maybe. yup I might do this but would try not to without calling first, I actually hate going to other people's house myself.

You are repeatedly failing to recognise that these community standards of friendship mean squat. Friendship is a personal thing to me. It is a sharing of ideas and a mutual respect for one another's boundaries. Breaking down those boundaries isn't intimacy to me. It is invasion.

I also think it's unfair to say that every Fe user I have ever met in my entire life was unhealthy. I have simply noticed a pattern of behaviour that they seem to think is completely normal but that I find entirely repulsive. This being the continued imposition of their personal standards onto me and my life.

+1 on the first part. And again Fe doms seem much, much more likely to tell you how to live than INFJs. However I have a pretty small pool of INFJs to study, so could be flawed.
 

Lauren Ashley

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:rofl1:

yeah, her comment was pretty slapstick funny! hahaha...

(but did anyone really take it seriously?? :huh:)

Ha, it's not up to us to discern whether it was serious or not. I just think it was irrelevant and moreover, false.
 
G

garbage

Guest
I love the inevitable "Stereotyper! No, you're stereotyping!" pissing match that these sorts of threads devolve into

"Oh, no.. that's not Fi, that's Si behavior. See? There's a different letter there. That makes it better, because it's not about me anymore. That's some other type, and that's okay!"

You all suck :doh:


That said, it's pretty obvious that the OP's friend probably just has a different perception of what a friendship is supposed to be about. For my friendships, I hate to be intruded upon and I hate to intrude, and I could quote and +1000 Tiny Army's deal about invasion until I was blue in the face. A friend who can't respect this ain't my friend.

If you realize that you've got completely different goals and expectations for your friendship than your friend does, it's probably time to move on.
 

jenocyde

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Ha, it's not up to us to discern whether it was serious or not. I just think it was irrelevant and moreover, false.

You're right, and Tiny can fight her own battles and make her own explanations. But if someone I don't know tells me to grow up (wtf, btw...), they can also expect a snarky remark. Just sayin'.
 

Lauren Ashley

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You're right, and Tiny can fight her own battles and make her own explanations. But if someone I don't know tells me to grow up (wtf, btw...), they can also expect a snarky remark. Just sayin'.

...Grow up.

:D
 
G

Glycerine

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The "invading of someone's space" and taking food from someone's fridge, is not Fe behavior, it's just plain rude. All the Fe doms I know would ask first or would wait for the person to ask them. If there are leftovers in the house, I usually double-check to see if anyone was saving them. Heathy Fe usually tries to consider others and looks to see how their actions affects others.
 

Tiny Army

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I pile on the snark to provoke reactions. I find it pushes people out of their comfort zone and forces them to be honest. Also I glory in conflict (a little too much).

I will readily admit to having tons of bad experiences with Fe users that has distinctly coloured my approach to this type. I love INFJs. I love my INFJ roomate to death. I still fundamentally disagree with some of her ideas about friendship and what it means. I have always thought true friendship meant no expectations and no obligations. Real friends hang out with each other because they want to, not because they have to. I have an incredibly vicious wolverine-like response when faced with "You have to do this because that's what people do." because I am a person and that's not what I do and I think that counts for something. Lightyear mentioned in an earlier post that the INFP friend is ignorant of"rules of friendship" that are "as clear as day" but they're not. I didn't know friendship HAD set in stone, nailed to the front door rules.

I have an example regarding both my favourite INFJ and my favourite ENFJ (I think I have used it before). I went through a traumatic experience when I was a young child that they both know about. They keep trying to get me to talk to them about it because they care about me and sympathise with me. I don't want to talk about it. I don't even like that I think about it as often as I do but they just think I am deflecting or trying to push them away. Apparently not wanting to discuss something that even thinking about makes me hyperventilate means I don't trust them but I do. I just need a barrier of emotional protection around myself to keep from getting hurt and it doesn't matter how much I care about you, that barrier's not going away.

I also disagree with the repeated use of the words "selfish" and "ungrateful" because I don't understand why I need to constantly express my gratitude that someone is in my life. The need to be told "You are my friend, look, I care see!?" is something that I find just as "selfish" as the Fi users directly discussed in this thread. The fact that I talk to you at all means that I care about you. It just feels like no matter how much you care it will never be enough for them and that is both stressful and hurtful to an Fi user.

PS. The comment was supposed to be funny. If the very thread title gets to stereotype a function then so do I, dammit!
 
G

Glycerine

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I pile on the snark to provoke reactions. I find it pushes people out of their comfort zone and forces them to be honest. Also I glory in conflict (a little too much).

I will readily admit to having tons of bad experiences with Fe users that has distinctly coloured my approach to this type. I love INFJs. I love my INFJ roomate to death. I still fundamentally disagree with some of her ideas about friendship and what it means. I have always thought true friendship meant no expectations and no obligations. Real friends hang out with each other because they want to, not because they have to. I have an incredibly vicious wolverine-like response when faced with "You have to do this because that's what people do." because I am a person and that's not what I do and I think that counts for something. Lightyear mentioned in an earlier post that the INFP friend is ignorant of"rules of friendship" that are "as clear as day" but they're not. I didn't know friendship HAD set in stone, nailed to the front door rules.

I have an example regarding both my favourite INFJ and my favourite ENFJ (I think I have used it before). I went through a traumatic experience when I was a young child that they both know about. They keep trying to get me to talk to them about it because they care about me and sympathise with me. I don't want to talk about it. I don't even like that I think about it as often as I do but they just think I am deflecting or trying to push them away. Apparently not wanting to discuss something that even thinking about makes me hyperventilate means I don't trust them but I do. I just need a barrier of emotional protection around myself to keep from getting hurt and it doesn't matter how much I care about you, that barrier's not going away.

I also disagree with the repeated use of the words "selfish" and "ungrateful" because I don't understand why I need to constantly express my gratitude that someone is in my life. The need to be told "You are my friend, look, I care see!?" is something that I find just as "selfish" as the Fi users directly discussed in this thread. The fact that I talk to you at all means that I care about you. It just feels like no matter how much you care it will never be enough for them and that is both stressful and hurtful to an Fi user.

PS. The comment was supposed to be funny. If the very thread title gets to stereotype a function then so do I, dammit!
Oh ok got it. We can be attention hogs that way with the gratitude thing. ;) I actually was saying something about this in one of my posts @ bolded. The ironic thing is that I have had an ENFP tell me to say "thank you" for something because they did not hear me even though I say it like 98% of the time. She also corrected some of my social etiquette I can understand the "forced gratitude" and expectations thing. It can be very hurtful and offensive.

PS: I think both sides has valid points.
 

PeaceBaby

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Why does this whole discussion even need to revolve around type? It's all about different expectations from friendship, and as the owner of your own feelings, you have to communicate your needs to others if you expect them to be fulfilled.

I don't treat every friend in my life the same way, because they all have different needs and requirements from our relationship. I have friends that are fair-weather friends, friends I know who will only call me when there is a crisis, friends that call me only with good news. Friends that call regularly, ones I hear from every year or two. There is no mathematical equation that defines friendship! ("Two phone calls, one sick visit, three text messages = FRIEND".)

The reality, especially as you build your life with spouses and children, is that your needs and wants will fluctuate, and so will the lives of your friends, and people will both enter and leave your life in unpredictable ways. Flow with it.

ULTIMATELY, you own how you feel, you can't control other people, you can't make anyone do anything without either their happy consent or grudging resentment, and if you want something from a friendship, ASK!

My goodness, what a way to complicate such a simple topic.
 

fill

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I'm not sure either Fi or Fe is "selfish." I read once that Fi feels empathy, and Fe feels sympathy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the MBTI doesn't score us on maturity or mental health, does it? This is why I have a bit of a problem with classifying selfishness with a function of the mind.

And to all the provoking ENTPs out there: please don't provoke me; I tell the truth regardless. ;)

EDIT: PeaceBaby, you're spot on.
 

mwv6r

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Four out of the six people who have done this in the past two years were IN/SFJs.

That behavior doesn't sound like any INFJ or ISFJ that I've ever met.

The only friend I have who does the drop-by-without-calling thing is an ESFJ. It doesn't bother me personally although I have heard some other people in our circle complain about it.

But again, I have a lot of trouble picturing an INFJ or ISFJ doing that. Were these people you were dating? Sometimes with an increased level of intimacy a person might feel more entitled to drop in on short or no notice. However, even when I dated guys I always called before stopping by. INFJs, I think, tend to be very respectful of others' privacy since we're so private ourselves. And my observation of ISFJs is that they wouldn't drop in without calling because it's against social etiquette (in addition to the larger introversion factor, of course).
 
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