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  1. #41
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I guess as long as I don't make any true friends, I won't have to worry about that. Thank goodness.

    I'm totally uncomfortable with that expectation. It's one thing if I'm asked to help, or I get a hint that they want me to visit... that's fine. But to be expected to take the initiative and OFFER help, and push my presence on them when they might be in such a bad mood that they might not even want company?
    That's why a person calls in advance before going over. If you call and they say they don't feel like seeing anyone right now then drop the issue and call again in a few days to see how they are doing. It just takes a few moments, if the person is important to one.

    But leaving to them to ask for help, they may really NEED help but feel like they don't want to impose and make their friends feel like they can't say no to a plea for help. It takes a lot more to say no to a request for help than an offer for help.

    I am just thing about the real friends I've had in the past, they would have done all this for me and I feel that I would owe them the same, mostly because I care about them and I want them to feel better if I can help. It is an indication of how invested the other person is in the friendship.

  2. #42
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I wouldn't do it because it is expected or a "norm" I would do it because I remember what it is like to be bored and/or lonely when sick or when I was helpless and how good it felt when someone helped me.
    But then again, I am talking about when it is true friendship.
    Good point, and I don't think Lightyear is expecting this strictly out of norms either. This is where the line between Fe and Fi blurs. It just so happens that most people want to be treated with kindness and consideration. If one does this in order to keep in harmony with someone (Fe, and that is the primary way I use Fe, so I'll go with that) or if one does it because they have discerned that this is an individual need/is humane (Fi), there is no difference.

  3. #43
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Question about this, and this isn't necessarily directed to you. If the person comes to you with their expectations, will you see them as being presumptuous and overly forward? Because this seems like the catch-22 I mentioned earlier.
    I don't know, it seems like if someone expressed directly that they were feeling bad/needing help, and they wanted me to do something to help them out, I would be more than glad to oblige. I think it's presumptuous to expect someone to do things for you without you telling or asking them in a more or less direct manner (it could even be a hint, but not too subtle). I don't really understand your catch-22, I guess. Could you perhaps explain a bit more why someone would think that a person was "overly forward" because they stated their expectations/directly asked for favors?
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  4. #44
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    I would like to throw in here that maybe she isn't really as good of a friend to you as you would like her to be. I mean, that's obvious, but what I'm really trying to say is that maybe she really isn't interested in your friendship anymore. It happens sometimes after high school, sometimes after high school friendships fade. You mentioned that you always have to contact her. Maybe it's time to let this friendship go for your own emotional health.

  5. #45
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    That's why a person calls in advance before going over. If you call and they say they don't feel like seeing anyone right now then drop the issue and call again in a few days to see how they are doing. It just takes a few moments, if the person is important to one.

    But leaving to them to ask for help, they may really NEED help but feel like they don't want to impose and make their friends feel like they can't say no to a plea for help. It takes a lot more to say no to a request for help than an offer for help.

    I am just thing about the real friends I've had in the past, they would have done all this for me and I feel that I would owe them the same, mostly because I care about them and I want them to feel better if I can help. It is an indication of how invested the other person is in the friendship.
    People actually expect this level of investment?

    I'm very uncomfortable making offers, and I don't like the idea of pushing to stay connected to people in the face of negative or absent feedback.

    The more I talk to you, the more disgusted I am with your expectations. I really hope everyone isn't like you, or I'm just going to forsake people altogether.

    I cannot BELIEVE the kind of entitlement some people feel. The nerve!

  6. #46
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Question about this, and this isn't necessarily directed to you. If the person comes to you with their expectations, will you see them as being presumptuous and overly forward? Because this seems like the catch-22 I mentioned earlier.
    I certainly used to, and may still feel that way as pure gut reflex. It took various things for me to realize what I was doing. During that time, what I did was to ask questions while I was experiencing that initial stave of annoyance or anger. It gave me time to cool down and gain understanding.

    Now, thanks partially to these forums, I have a much better understanding of the mindset. With understanding comes a new found appreciation.

    It still doesn't prevent that initial feeling of violation, though.

  7. #47
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I don't know, it seems like if someone expressed directly that they were feeling bad/needing help, and they wanted me to do something to help them out, I would be more than glad to oblige. I think it's presumptuous to expect someone to do things for you without you telling or asking them in a more or less direct manner (it could even be a hint, but not too subtle). I don't really understand your catch-22, I guess. Could you perhaps explain a bit more why someone would think that a person was "overly forward" because they stated their expectations/directly asked for favors?
    Gladly. The thought is that the person is pushing their own needs on you, with the expectation that you will accomodate them. They feel they are entitled to have their needs met. Not only that, but they are impinging on your freedom to your own thoughts and decisions; basic rights as an individual.

    Example: "I need you to buy me candies and flowers on Valentine's Day. And call me after work every day to make sure I am okay. And..." To you, would this just amount to being clear about needs/expectations? Or is it going a bit beyond that?

  8. #48
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    In my reply above, I should note that necessity makes a huge difference. If someone I cared for was in genuine need, I'd jump happily at a chance to help.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    People actually expect this level of investment?

    I'm very uncomfortable making offers, and I don't like the idea of pushing to stay connected to people in the face of negative or absent feedback.

    The more I talk to you, the more disgusted I am with your expectations. I really hope everyone isn't like you, or I'm just going to forsake people altogether.

    I cannot BELIEVE the kind of entitlement some people feel. The nerve!
    I had a true friend who taught me how to be a friend. That's all I can say. And to say I don't think this is a an Fe/Fi thing.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Example: "I need you to buy me candies and flowers on Valentine's Day. And call me after work every day to make sure I am okay. And..." To you, would this just amount to being clear about needs/expectations? Or is it going a bit beyond that?
    I've always conflicted with people who hold holidays and tradition important. If I had a SO on valentine's day I'd say "happy valentine's day, I love you." Then probably do something for her or something with her, like go out to her favorite restaurant or something like that. If someone told me what to buy them I wouldn't see the value in that... it's like "alright alright just buy me this so I won't get pissed off at you. To show that you care I need physical things, not just your word".

    Like I was saying before, it would be my own subjective opinion of what they deserve on that day. Depending on how much someone matters to me, I'll do varying things for people on their birthdays or holidays. I'll try to think of something creative and cheap that my closest friends will like just for the good gesture, and for people below that I'd just say "merry christmas" or "happy birthday" and hang out with them if they wanted me to.

    I think FPs and FJs get along when the FP's actions are tweaked toward what the FJ expects, and this happening naturally aids the process.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

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