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  1. #221
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Protean:

    If my friend cared about birthdays (btw, nice job of way over exaggerating the Fi opinion of birthdays :p), I'd respect it. The thing is, it would be a HUGELY personal gesture for me, tailor fitted for that friend specifically. My Birthday loving Fe friend would miss all that undertone, thinking it's just a sweet expression that I do for everyone. In fact, a friend that notices that it's out of character receives huge bonus points.

    I think it's nice when someone remembers my birthday, but I don't expect it. I often have a hard time mustering enthusiasm for it, as well, because I don't know if it's *me* they are celebrating, or the social protocol that says that birthdays are a good time to make an appropriate gesture.

    I operate on the 'treat others as you want to be treated' theory, and assume others do the same. If someone calls me for my birthday, I sort of assume they would appreciate the gesture in return, so I make an effort. If I forget, I apologize and tell them the truth - I'm not very good with birthdays, nor do I expect them to remember mine. That usually opens up a conversation where greater understanding is reached. If I notice it really means alot to them, I try *much* harder in the future to remember.

    Same with other classic Fe gestures. If I don't 'get it', I show appreciation, then try and understand the deeper meaning behind the gesture. This allows me to either return the gesture verbatim, or find a new and creative way to express the same feeling.

  2. #222
    Senior Member Lightyear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Perhaps your INFP friend senses you keep score? Do you see how your question has now circled back on itself? Are you the one in that relationship who seems to be demanding and therefore she avoids you?

    Food for thought ...
    I can see exactly how it could be interpreted that my question has circled back on itself but I AM NOT PRESSURING HER INTO DOING THINGS FOR ME, I HATE IT IF PEOPLE DO THAT TO ME.

    I might be annoyed on the inside but I am not telling her: "I am your friend, you should do this, do that for me!" But wait, now I am doing the wrong thing again by not telling her directly how I feel and what I expect from our friendship... can I ever win? Vicious cycle anyone?

    For me being able to pressure her at all there would have to exist some basic communication first of all anyway, which is not given since she hasn't written to me for months, has not responded to my one or two attempts to contact her and I am tired of chasing after her. I am even wondering if I should bother telling her that I am annoyed that she didn't contact me at all during my birthday (which in this particular circle of friends is something that we just do, and which she always has done in the past, so please no complaining about: "Fe users are so pushy and traditional wanting others to remember their birthdays!"), can I really be arsed to contact her about something which I saw as a given or just accept her not bothering as a sign that I am obviously very low on her list of priorities and should let the friendship die? Probably.

  3. #223
    Senior Member Lightyear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Those are my standards of friendship, exactly. I require that you make some effort to meet them if you want to be my friend. If you don't want to be my friend, peace and love just the same and that's fine, too, but life is short and I'd rather not try to reform you; I'd rather move on. Being my friend means that if I am in the hospital you think of me and you ask me what I might want. Like, my mother was in the hospital and I sent flowers and I called her once to ask her if she wanted me to call her every day or twice a day or whether she felt more that she needed to rest, and she said she needed to rest and not to call. You have conversations, you see, and you learn what each other needs and wants.

    But it is definitely easier if you can be with people who recognize basic etiquette and that's really, I think, what Lightyear's talking about. Friends remember your birthday, call and/or visit when you're sick, listen to your love life concerns, reciprocate your invitations, yeah, I could go on and on about what I think a friendship should be. I have a need to make things as close to ideal as possible and I surely have a right to seek my own happiness. If you (the general "you") is not able to make me happy, it's best for the both of us that I move on.

    I'm saying, it astounded me when I realized that other people do not have the same expectations that I take for granted, and I learned to be a little more flexible. But for me, I know my few friends' favorite colors, flowers, food, how they drink their coffee, Pepsi or Coke and how much ice, what their favorite food is, I make a concerted effort to know everything I can about what makes them happy, and then to the extent I am able, I try to promote their happiness. I pay very close attention to their feeling states. And sometimes I flake out and forget birthdays, it happened just last month, but when I caught it, I called my friend and apologized for forgetting his birthday and sent him a gift.

    You might not want to work that hard, and that's fine. But "love me while I ignore you even while you're sick" does not constitute a friend, TO ME. And yeah, I have a purpose on the face of the earth and a right to my needs. Maybe you would find it hard to be friends with me in real life (although I tend to think not, actually, remembering how supportive you can be), but I have a right to want what I want and try to get it. I think we all should. "No expectations" has zero appeal to me. Expectations are negotiable but I'm not going to say I don't have them when I do.

    I'm sorry to go on so long but it has to do with communicating, that's all. I had a friend who constantly bought me gifts. In return (I thought), I cooked for him. He would also sometimes ask me to cook for his friends and family, and I would oblige. This was a huge deal to me because I am a very good cook but I freakin' hate it. If I cook for you, I seriously love you, that is a big gift . He thought I enjoyed it. One day he blew up at me because he said he had given me all these gifts and I never reciprocated and I could not have been more stunned. I brought up all the dinners I'd cooked. He was stunned in return.

    You have to talk, and to talk, you have to be in touch, and to be in touch, you have to exchange at least phone calls.

    I know other people think differently and that's fine, I'm just saying, it's also a valid notion to think that love means doing something, rather than just sitting around thinking to yourself that you love me or you are my friend and in fact doing nothing that promotes my happiness, whether that means dropping by often or whether that means make sure you call before you come; whether that means don't call me on the phone because I hate the phone, or call me at least once a week. But at the very least IMO you have to pay attention.
    Exactly. What's the point of a friendship that is so "low maintenance" that it almost doesn't exist anymore? I am honestly not pushy or demanding in relationships (I swear, I rather have the opposite problem of not expressing myself enough) but I am tired of being bashed for expecting some basic things. Even if that means like in Armagith's case that she won't talk to me for months but then be really there for me when it counts, that is fine with me, it's just a different way of expressing things and I would still feel loved and appreciated by her because I see she makes an effort.

  4. #224
    Senior Member Lightyear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post

    If you feel like you bend over backwards to please people, and constantly put other people's needs above your own, and then you resent them for not doing the same for you---you might want to look up "Co-dependence".

    Are You Codependent?
    (Sorry for making this a triple post, just working through the thread.)

    I don't have problems with co-dependency. Honestly not. A lot of times I am very happy to have my own space and my self-worth does not depend on other people needing me.

  5. #225
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Any function is related to selfishness when used to the exclusion of others that are supposed to balance it out, regardless of the preferences and abilities of those around the user.

    Most likely this will involve (often unconsciously) holding others to an unrealistically high standard of performance in a given area just because it's something you're good at, and so if you don't stop to think about it you may not realize that not everything that's obvious to you is obvious to everyone else, no matter how much you think it should be. So-called "common sense" is quite relative. The OP describes an INFP who expects too much proficiency in Fi from others, simply because she herself finds use of this function so obvious and easy.

    This is such a ubiquitous mistake it's almost scary.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #226
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    In respobnse to the OP, your friend sounds like a selfish beeyatch.

    Seriously, you broke your foot, she lived 20 minutes away at most, and she didn't visit once or twice during your recovery period?

    She'll socialize on her whim, but once the "inner feelings compass" tells her she needs some "me time" then she tells everyone as such and goes her separate way?

    Friendship is a TWO WAY street; your gf seems like a FAIRWEATHER friend, at least one that is only willing to engage in friendships with others on her terms, on her schedule, at ther discretion.

    Is she a lawyer, or a salesperson by chance?

    Good luck with her, park her in the bad friend parking lot if she causes you more grief than joy.


  7. #227
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Let's take birthdays for example. OK, you don't care about birthdays, they're empty and meaningless and you could care less if anybody remembers your birthday.
    I LOVE birthdays, but I will play along with you anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    If you have a friend who does not share your beliefs about birthdays would put aside your own personal beliefs and do something special with or for your friend, regardless of your personal value about that event is?
    Of course! But the opposite then must hold true - if they want you to do nothing, you must honor that too.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Is it enough that your friend values it so therefore you'll value it as well? Or is it a matter of if it has no value to you, very little would move you towards valuing this hypothetical event?
    Of course I value that it is meaningful to him/her, so would want to make it a nice day for them as appropriate.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Would you not be touched that even though you've made it clear that you don't do birthdays, someone remembered yours and did something special for you: a gift, a handwritten note, anything?
    From my own experience, I have learned that when most people ask me not to make a big deal of their birthday, they REALLY MEAN IT! I have upset people by doing something on their birthday when they explicitly said please don't.

    Personally, I would like a little gesture, but THAT'S JUST ME!

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Or would you interpret the acknowledgment of the birthday as some form of manipulation on the friends part, chastising you for not valuing theirs?
    Well, I have been chastised by other people (for example, having the crew sing Happy Birthday to them in restaurants etc) so my Fe sure was off-base here! See, birthdays are such a big day to me I totally forgot to pay attention to my Fi and check in with what my instincts were telling me about the other person involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Because I think people are talking past each other but really saying the same thing. I don't believe Fi users reason this way, but I'm being fairly extreme to make a point.
    Umm thanks, and let's clarify: no, we don't reason that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I agree that some needs and expectations should be articulated explicity but would you really want someone to hand you a list of Things I Expect From You As A Friend? Some of these things seem, well obvious. But I also realize what seems obvious to me is not always obvious to other people.
    Of course no one has a list, but of course what is obvious to you is NOT obvious to others. That's a given really!

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    So for another example you're becoming good friends with a person and they say explicitly, "You know birthdays are really important to me and I enjoy celebrating mine and my friends. I expect you to do something for me on my birthdays and not forget." The tone isn't harsh or demanding, just a simple statement of expectation. I'm being dead serious, I'd look at that person like a rabbit just jumped out of their left ear. I don't know, that seems so presumptuous to me. It seems to me people are expecting a level of communication that is highly atypical in most interactions.
    No one is saying you would say something like this at all! I too would find it shocking to hear that statement from anyone, but their are subtle ways to say what you need to say. Actually, if we all used that level of clarity, it would be refreshing!

    ---

    As you can see under my avvy, I am an INFP. Also, I score high for Fe use in testing, and am very adept in the social application of it, so I generally consider my Fe well developed. I also have a bit of experiential seasoning under my belt thanks to my age. So I am answering from this context.

    As I said above, I LOVE birthdays. Love, love, love them! I don't expect a huge fuss on mine, but hey, it is a day to celebrate and I enjoy when people make my day a special one. (Who says Fi users don't love birthdays? Huge stereotype there!)

    Anyway, I have always attempted to make them fun for my family and immediate circle, despite a couple of people hinting over the years saying they would rather me not make such a big deal of theirs. Society tells us that birthdays ARE supposed to be a big deal though! So I used to think that they were just being shy, or self-deprecating, or in denial that they deserve attention, and I THOUGHT I would change their minds by doing my special birthday stuff for them anyway. And although I KNOW it was appreciated at the surface level, I know now they truly DON'T want or need the balloons and streamers and big party and tooting horns to mark the event or make their day great. How do I know this? I can sense it.

    And ... one person actually had to tell me directly too.

    For celebrations now, I work to customize to the individual, as it should be. I use the Fi to make sure I'm on track with the needs of others. And sometimes I do try to be encouraging, because some people really do want the attention but are too afraid or shy to ask for it.

    But let it be said, if you are hitting one of the "big ones" - you won't escape 16, 18, 21, 25, 30, 40, 50 etc. without a little extra customized love from me! I can't just let everyone off the hook completely!

    My point: I can't emphasize it enough that each circumstance, each relationship you have is unique with parameters of its own.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlahBlahNounBlah View Post
    I don't say one thing while secretly meaning another.

    If someone told me they didn't want a gift, I wouldn't get them one. And I'd expect the same courtesy.
    See?

    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    If my friend cared about birthdays (btw, nice job of way over exaggerating the Fi opinion of birthdays :p), I'd respect it. The thing is, it would be a HUGELY personal gesture for me, tailor fitted for that friend specifically. My Birthday loving Fe friend would miss all that undertone, thinking it's just a sweet expression that I do for everyone. In fact, a friend that notices that it's out of character receives huge bonus points.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightyear View Post
    I am even wondering if I should bother telling her that I am annoyed that she didn't contact me at all during my birthday (which in this particular circle of friends is something that we just do, and which she always has done in the past, so please no complaining about: "Fe users are so pushy and traditional wanting others to remember their birthdays!"), can I really be arsed to contact her about something which I saw as a given or just accept her not bothering as a sign that I am obviously very low on her list of priorities and should let the friendship die? Probably.
    Just tell her you missed hearing from her. No guilt attached. See what happens. If nothing, and she still makes you feel bad, just let her drift off. Drama not necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Any function is related to selfishness when used to the exclusion of others that are supposed to balance it out, regardless of the preferences and abilities of those around the user.

    Most likely this will involve (often unconsciously) holding others to an unrealistically high standard of performance in a given area just because it's something you're good at, and so if you don't stop to think about it you may not realize that not everything that's obvious to you is obvious to everyone else, no matter how much you think it should be. So-called "common sense" is quite relative. The OP describes an INFP who expects too much proficiency in Fi from others, simply because she herself finds use of this function so obvious and easy.

    This is such a ubiquitous mistake it's almost scary.
    A well-articulated post. Thanks simulatedworld.

  8. #228
    Senior Member Tiny Army's Avatar
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    If we're using the birthday example: I have a lot of personal issues surrounding my birthday. My friends know about this and they still do these weird half baked birthday things while I smile a rictus grin and pray for it all to be over quickly. I know they mean well but GAH my birthday is a pretty shit time, I have told them repeatedly about how much I dislike it and they still just somehow don't seem to comprehend how this works for me.

    If it's a friend that lives in another country and sends me a birthday e-mail I always respond because it was probably just an excuse to get in touch with me. If someone invites me to their birthday party and I have the time I usually offer to bake the cake. I don't like birthday presents and for the most part don't buy them. Nor do I do Christmas presents (I mean I've never had a christmas in my life and I don't understand why I have to participate in a holiday that is so (a) completely materialistic (b) completely alien to my culture) but if someone gets me a Christmas present I say thank you, explain how I don't usually do Christmas and they REALLY didn't have to and shouldn't next year. If a present appears again next year despite that I cannot help but be slightly annoyed because those kinds of displays just make me really uncomfortable and I try to articulate this to my friends as politely as possible.

    I just think that sometimes the Fe users in this situation put a greater emphasis on actually DOING things for the other party than they do on understanding the other party's wants and needs. It sometimes feels like they have a quota; "Complete the following list of activities and then you have all the ingredients for a long lasting and harmonious friendship! Just like a box of cake mix!" and it makes me feel sort of cheap. Using an ENFJ friend as an example, it's almost like they think they can buy my friendship by driving me to work for a month (during which I payed for the gas for the record) or helping me out on a film set (I worked on two of his films later). He decided that we were much closer than we were because he had done all these favours for me and would conveniently forget that I had repaid him and would sulk about it all the time.


    I would also like to add that I buy presents for my friends all the time but they tend to be the "I saw this and it made me think of you" kind of gifts. I have very high expectations for my own behaviour in friendships. I go out of my way to help my friends but I do not believe that anyone truly has the right to foist their expectations on other people. Nor should anyone expect help without asking for it first.
    Anger is also a feeling.

  9. #229
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Army View Post
    I just think that sometimes the Fe users in this situation put a greater emphasis on actually DOING things for the other party than they do on understanding the other party's wants and needs.
    Fi is internal motivation. Fe is external expression. Fe is blind to Fi unless it gets expressed in an observable manner.

  10. #230
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    Fi is internal motivation. Fe is external expression. Fe is blind to Fi unless it gets expressed in an observable manner.
    Wouldn't anything be blind to Fi unless it expresses itself? Maybe a perceptive function would pick up on the barest hints of it?

    Like I said I think most people are talking past each other in this thread. The basic message I'm getting is the one that holds true in almost any relationship which is communicate. The wires are getting crossed communication part of it. I hate when people make things Fe vs. Fi because that goes absolutely nowhere. One set is saying this is what it means to me, the other is this is what it means to us and the words are like bubbles floating off into the sky. It looks like people are talking they just don't like what they're hearing.

    So what do you do when you don't like what you hear? You can end it or make it work. Reading the responses in this thread would lead me to believe that FP/FJ friends are impossible, but I know that's not the case. Evidently there must be some concessions being made or the friendships wouldn't exist. Or maybe the friendships are viewed at one level by one party and another by the other and they think they're on the same page but they're not. Maybe they don't realize how wide and disparate the gulf is and only things like the one Lightyear brought up expose it but if it doesn't happen neither person brings it up. I don't know I'm just saying there has got to be something other than this. It's been said multiple times how much would be cleared up by just asking or telling.

    Some people need a prompt before telling and others are more willing to say without a prompt. How do you avoid one person's telling not being construed as demanding and the other's not telling not being construed as uncommunicative or inexpressive?
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
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