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  1. #211
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    People want to point the finger. "Fe is awesome! It's about making other people feel welcome and provided for! Fi is just self centered! I'm awesome!"

    I'm an Fi user too and don't share that point of view either.

    No I wasn't directing that statement toward anyone in particular.
    Fe is NOT necessarily the self-sacrificing function everyone believes it to be.

    My Fe-dom friends seem capable of telling me when they are too tired, too over-extended, too busy to do something for me or with me. They have no problem with this, and I am so glad! I am the one who gets the big guilty feelings at times because I feel like I SHOULD always be helpful to others, even to the point of neglecting myself.

    Thus said, I think the enneagram could be way more helpful here - it tries to pinpoint the emotional motivation behind our actions and might do a better job of understanding the situation rather than simply looking at MBTI alone.

    A good quote to reflect on: "People with developed Fe tend to create implied bargains with other people about what sort of role they will play in regard to each other. They make an opening "bid" where they cast the other person in a positive role, e.g. "Would you be willing to spare a moment of your time to share your expertise with me?", casting the other person as an expert and a very important person. The implied contract is that if they treat you as a very important person, then you will each have very satisfying social roles. But if you get out of line, then you will withdraw your willingness to cast them in that role. Each line where you play the other person up thus creates a sort of debt: now they "owe" you some response that makes you important."

    --http://greenlightwiki.com/lenore-exegesis/Extraverted_Feeling

  2. #212
    Senior Member BlahBlahNounBlah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Army View Post
    All I'm saying is that if those are what your standards of friendship are then your friend needs to know this in advance. For me friends are people who don't demand or expect things of you. They want to share experiences and information with you, be that personal information (their relationship problems) or ANY information (defragmenting hard drives, building pillow forts and theories about the space-time continuum). I don't remember my own birthday half the time and really don't expect other people to. I cook for people all the time but not because they brought me gifts or for any reason other than they were my friend and I wanted to cook for them. I also do not expect anything in return for the cooking because I don't believe that cooking for someone automatically means they owe you food, nor will I cook for someone if they turn up at my house sans ingredients and demanding food.

    If a friend I haven't heard from in six years tells me she's going to be in town I don't refuse because she didn't respond to my e-mails way back when. I do not know the circumstances that may have resulted in those many ignored e-mails and will never assume it is because the other person doesn't care. If a friend hasn't returned more than three phone calls I wait for them to call me because they surely have their reasons and I trust that they will tell me those the next time I hear from them, whenever they may be.

    What I'm saying is I don't see how your standard is any better or more desirable than mine and I think it's a good illustration of the differences between our types.

    I don't expect anything of casual friends, and I prefer that they expect nothing of me.


    But close friends are different. That's what makes them close friends. If someone has no expectations of me, what makes them any different from some person I could meet in 5 minutes? I could walk outside right now and meet such a person. What is holding that relationship together?


    Within my means, I will do anything for anyone, friend or no friend. And I never expect or even want anything in return. But if I consider someone a friend, I need to know they will think of me and be there for me even when it's not convenient for them. And I'll want to do this for them in return because I love them.

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlahBlahNounBlah View Post
    I don't expect anything of casual friends, and I prefer that they expect nothing of me.


    But close friends are different. That's what makes them close friends. If someone has no expectations of me, what makes them any different from some person I could meet in 5 minutes? I could walk outside right now and meet such a person. What is holding that relationship together?


    Within my means, I will do anything for anyone, friend or no friend. And I never expect or even want anything in return. But if I consider someone a friend, I need to know they will think of me and be there for me even when it's not convenient for them. And I'll want to do this for them in return because I love them.

    I agree with this. People in my inner circle are different from people outside it and I do have higher expectations of myself in how I treat them.

  4. #214
    Senior Member BlahBlahNounBlah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Fe is NOT necessarily the self-sacrificing function everyone believes it to be.

    My Fe-dom friends seem capable of telling me when they are too tired, too over-extended, too busy to do something for me or with me. They have no problem with this, and I am so glad! I am the one who gets the big guilty feelings at times because I feel like I SHOULD always be helpful to others, even to the point of neglecting myself.

    Thus said, I think the enneagram could be way more helpful here - it tries to pinpoint the emotional motivation behind our actions and might do a better job of understanding the situation rather than simply looking at MBTI alone.

    A good quote to reflect on: "People with developed Fe tend to create implied bargains with other people about what sort of role they will play in regard to each other. They make an opening "bid" where they cast the other person in a positive role, e.g. "Would you be willing to spare a moment of your time to share your expertise with me?", casting the other person as an expert and a very important person. The implied contract is that if they treat you as a very important person, then you will each have very satisfying social roles. But if you get out of line, then you will withdraw your willingness to cast them in that role. Each line where you play the other person up thus creates a sort of debt: now they "owe" you some response that makes you important."

    --http://greenlightwiki.com/lenore-exegesis/Extraverted_Feeling


    ENFJs make me nervous.

  5. #215
    Senior Member Tiny Army's Avatar
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    I do agree with heart but I should probably add that I consider my inner circle incredibly small. It contains a total of four people. I don't know if they're generally bigger than that...?

    Again, I will go out of my way for people, even more so if they ask but if it is demanded of me (with passive aggression, sulking, yelling, guilt tripping. A demand is different than a request.) I always get pissed. I also do not expect any of my friends to do things for me without my asking, ever.
    Anger is also a feeling.

  6. #216
    Senior Member BlahBlahNounBlah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Army View Post
    if it is demanded of me (with passive aggression, sulking, yelling, guilt tripping. A demand is different than a request.) I always get pissed. I also do not expect any of my friends to do things for me without my asking, ever.

    Complete agreement!



    Anyone who dares to guilt me into anything gets the blue screen of death.

  7. #217
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    OK, this is based on Tiny Army's posts but not necessarily directed at her, do Fi users have little to no expectations of the implicit expectations of the group of people you consider "friends?" Just the general concept of a friend: someone you can talk to, someone you can share yourself with, someone you can rely on, etc. How do Fi users believe those assumptions about the role a friend has in your life play out practically?

    Let's take birthdays for example. OK, you don't care about birthdays, they're empty and meaningless and you could care less if anybody remembers your birthday. If you have a friend who does not share your beliefs about birthdays would put aside your own personal beliefs and do something special with or for your friend, regardless of your personal value about that event is? Is it enough that your friend values it so therefore you'll value it as well? Or is it a matter of if it has no value to you, very little would move you towards valuing this hypothetical event?

    Would you not be touched that even though you've made it clear that you don't do birthdays, someone remembered yours and did something special for you: a gift, a handwritten note, anything? Or would you interpret the acknowledgment of the birthday as some form of manipulation on the friends part, chastising you for not valuing theirs? Because I think people are talking past each other but really saying the same thing. I don't believe Fi users reason this way, but I'm being fairly extreme to make a point. If the friend is upset that because you have a personal belief that recognition of birthdays isn't a necessary component of friendship, how do you broach that topic with your friend? Do you show your appreciation for your friend in other ways that would make the friend more understanding of your belief? What type of communication is going on on the part of the Fi user in communicating the lack of significance of certain acts to others in order for there to be middle ground.

    I agree that some needs and expectations should be articulated explicity but would you really want someone to hand you a list of Things I Expect From You As A Friend? Some of these things seem, well obvious. But I also realize what seems obvious to me is not always obvious to other people.

    So for another example you're becoming good friends with a person and they say explicitly, "You know birthdays are really important to me and I enjoy celebrating mine and my friends. I expect you to do something for me on my birthdays and not forget." The tone isn't harsh or demanding, just a simple statement of expectation. I'm being dead serious, I'd look at that person like a rabbit just jumped out of their left ear. I don't know, that seems so presumptuous to me. It seems to me people are expecting a level of communication that is highly atypical in most interactions.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  8. #218
    Senior Member BlahBlahNounBlah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Would you not be touched that even though you've made it clear that you don't do birthdays, someone remembered yours and did something special for you: a gift, a handwritten note, anything?
    If I were to specifically say I don't want a gift and someone got me one anyway, I'd think they dig too deep with the cotton swabs.


    I don't say one thing while secretly meaning another.


    If someone told me they didn't want a gift, I wouldn't get them one. And I'd expect the same courtesy.


    However, if someone loves a holiday that I don't celebrate or believe in, I'd do everything I could to make that a great day for them. My feelings about the holiday don't matter. It's about them and making them happy.

  9. #219
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlahBlahNounBlah View Post
    If I were to specifically say I don't want a gift and someone got me one anyway, I'd think they dig too deep with the cotton swabs.


    I don't say one thing while secretly meaning another.


    If someone told me they didn't want a gift, I wouldn't get them one. And I'd expect the same courtesy.
    I'm not talking about that. But perhaps people think this is still a covert attempt at manipulation? Are you misunderstanding intent?
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  10. #220
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    I haven't read through the responses to the original post, but here's my take on it:

    Recently, with the help of a therapist, I have learned that you can't really do anything to change another person.

    All you can do is work on yourself.

    That's it.

    Plan and simple.

    If you feel like you bend over backwards to please people, and constantly put other people's needs above your own, and then you resent them for not doing the same for you---you might want to look up "Co-dependence".

    Are You Codependent?

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