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  1. #121
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Well, I think if the friend had replied to the email or called and said she felt uncomfortable visiting, Lightyear would have understood. I could be wrong but I think it was the lack of consideration, not so much the lack of tangible help, that was the trigger for the OP.
    I guess that's the thing... I'm the sort of person who might very well have written a long e-mail (or had a long phone call) telling them how bad I felt for them, asking paranoid questions about worst-case scenarios regarding their situation, and then telling them everything I can find out that might be helpful regarding their condition.

    Then I would go ahead, write up a personalized get-well-card I think they'd appreciate, and then send it off.

    At that point, I'd pretty much assume I had done everything I needed to. I wouldn't have even thought to mention visiting, because it's not the kind of thing that would normally occur to me unless someone mentioned it. And I'm fairly clumsy with practical stuff... I struggle enough taking care of my own practical stuff, I certainly don't want to take on someone else's.

    I suppose the expectation bothers me, because it's something I'm not any good at. Not to mention that seeing people in that state, I'd probably break down so badly in front of the person that they'd probably have to reassure me that they were going to be fine... they don't need to see that. I'd rather they had someone stronger and more competent taking care of that stuff.

  2. #122
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I guess that's the thing... I'm the sort of person who might very well have written a long e-mail (or had a long phone call) telling them how bad I felt for them, asking paranoid questions about worst-case scenarios regarding their situation, and then telling them everything I can find out that might be helpful regarding their condition.

    Then I would go ahead, write up a personalized get-well-card I think they'd appreciate, and then send it off.

    At that point, I'd pretty much assume I had done everything I needed to. I wouldn't have even thought to mention visiting, because it's not the kind of thing that would normally occur to me unless someone mentioned it. And I'm fairly clumsy with practical stuff... I struggle enough taking care of my own practical stuff, I certainly don't want to take on someone else's.

    I suppose the expectation bothers me, because it's something I'm not any good at. Not to mention that I'd probably break down so badly in front of the ill person that they'd probably have to reassure me that they were going to be fine... they don't need to see that. I'd rather they had someone stronger and more competent taking care of that stuff if possible.
    I think this is totally fine.

    I guess for me it's easy to squash my "personal" feelings on a certain level. Just this week one of my friend's was in a talent show and it was raining outside and I just wanted to sit inside the house and veg out. But I got up and went anyway. I know hospitals make some people extremely nervous but I don't have that particular reaction. It's so many different variables in situations like this, it's hard to know. I usually ask when in doubt, what would you like me to do? Some people might even get offended because you asked and didn't know. What can you do about that? Nothing.

    professor: LOL @ retrograde feeder.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
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    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aderack View Post
    Did you ever ask her to come over, or are you just assuming that any reasonable person would think of doing so? Because, uh, I don't see why that in itself merits special attention. If I were injured, the last thing I'd want is people imposing themselves on me, trying to make me feel better. Since, you know, there's nothing for them to do. If I want the attention, I'll ask for it.
    Yeah.. I'd be really uncomfortable with people trying to help me if I didn't ask them to do it. I've been in several situations where I felt that I could and should get by on my own, but yet I had people drop in unexpectedly. I appreciated the gestures, but it wasn't what I needed. If they truly wanted to help me, it stands to reason that they'd figure that one out.. especially after I tell them exactly that.

    To me, if you drop by or try to help in these ways, you're doing me a disservice. It's just trying to help without regard to the person you're actually helping. Which.. yeah, isn't helping at all. It's a form of selfish altruism.

    As a small example, if I have a migraine, there's no way that I want to be taken care of. I need to be left to my own devices. I have told people that, if I have to talk to them, I'll end up being more agitated, more direct, and less sensitive with them, unless I reach out to them first. Then they drop by anyway and then wonder why I'm so insensitive.

    .. and then they expect me to return the "favor." I must ask.. what favor am I returning, exactly?

  4. #124
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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  5. #125
    Senior Member rainoneventide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greed View Post
    Yeah.. I'd be really uncomfortable with people trying to help me if I didn't ask them to do it. I've been in several situations where I felt that I could and should get by on my own, but yet I had people drop in unexpectedly. I appreciated the gestures, but it wasn't what I needed. If they truly wanted to help me, it stands to reason that they'd figure that one out.. especially after I tell them exactly that.

    To me, if you drop by or try to help in these ways, you're doing me a disservice. It's just trying to help without regard to the person you're actually helping. Which.. yeah, isn't helping at all. It's a form of selfish altruism.

    As a small example, if I have a migraine, there's no way that I want to be taken care of. I need to be left to my own devices. I have told people that, if I have to talk to them, I'll end up being more agitated, more direct, and less sensitive with them, unless I reach out to them first. Then they drop by anyway and then wonder why I'm so insensitive.

    .. and then they expect me to return the "favor." I must ask.. what favor am I returning, exactly?
    Exactly!

    If you want to base the worth of your friendships on how well a person continually tries to prove they're your friend by meeting your tacit expectations, then fine, but honesty, that sounds like a really shitty relationship. If that's your view, I'm sure tens and thousands of people feel the same way. So have fun with that. I don't want any part of it.

    Maybe this is why the divorce rate has gone up?

    Edit: "You" doesn't refer to anyone specific, just using it in a general way
    "So I say, live and let live. Thats my motto. Live and let live.
    Anyone who cant go along with that, take him outside and shoot the motherfucker."
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  6. #126
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightyear View Post
    That's why I sent her an email first, telling her about my accident but didn't say "Please, please visit me!!", I didn't want to make her feel unnecessarily pressured.

    One thing I have a problem with (from my Fe point of view) is that this Fi desire of keeping it real can get in the way of actually truly practically helping people. One example: A girl from my home group in church hurt her back pretty badly and is supposed to move house on Saturday. She sent around emails to the people in my home group asking if they are free on Sat and can help her move her stuff since she obviously is just in too much pain to do so. She isn't a close friend at all but I agreed to help her (and I am not saying this to blow my own trumpet, honestly not), when it comes to helping people I just have this very rational equation in my head:

    Person is in obvious need + I have the resources/time to help her + I don't feel like this person is just constantly milking everyone for favours/ emotionally manipulative but is in genuine need = I help her

    It's as simple as that and I don't wait for some inner peace/enlightenment or whatever to come over me, if there is a need that I can meet I meet it unless I feel the other person is a manipulator.
    The difference between your email & the woman with the hurt back is that she specifically stated her need for help. I would respond to that. If someone doesn't ask for help, then no, it does not always occur to me that they need or want it. I must be told in clear terms. I don't know why, but I am just oblivious to practical things like that sometimes.

    I have no idea what you mean about waiting for inner peace to come over you. I don't think you're understanding Fi by that statement.... Of course we can put ourselves aside and help people when we're not "in the mood". However, we may not think to help people if we don't realize they need it or want it. We may have different ideas of what being considerate is, such as giving a person with a broken leg some space unless they specifically ask for a visit.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by greed View Post
    Yeah.. I'd be really uncomfortable with people trying to help me if I didn't ask them to do it. I've been in several situations where I felt that I could and should get by on my own, but yet I had people drop in unexpectedly. I appreciated the gestures, but it wasn't what I needed. If they truly wanted to help me, it stands to reason that they'd figure that one out.. especially after I tell them exactly that...
    Yes, that would be terribly invasive and actuall controlling of another person. But to be clear no one in this thread has suggested anyone push help on another person or go visit without calling first. There's got to be a middle ground.

    I have no idea what you mean about waiting for inner peace to come over you. I don't think you're understanding Fi by that statement.... Of course we can put ourselves aside and help people when we're not "in the mood". However, we may not think to help people if we don't realize they need it or want it. We may have different ideas of what being considerate is, such as giving a person with a broken leg some space unless they specifically ask for a visit.
    I would engage Ne and ask what they wanted before assuming they wanted space. I know that not everyone wants what I think they may want.

    This board is an priceless tool for perspective, the number one thing that other types complain about INFP is that the INFP stays too distant, doesn't give enough feedback, doesn't engage enough, doesn't receprociate enough. To do so requires use of Ne, to test the waters, to find out what others are really feeling, not just what Fi suggests they may be feeling. Tertiary temptation would urge an INFP to stay locked into Fi-Si and focused on their own interpretation of what others may need or want from them.

  8. #128
    Senior Member mwv6r's Avatar
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    Unfortunately I've had a similar experience with an unhealthy INFP. She was the closest friend I've ever had. Throughout college we were unseparable. I seriously loved this girl and would do anything for her. We laughed together, cried together, the whole nine yards, and it was a huge deal for me because I don't let many people in that close outside of a romantic partner. She frequently professed to feel the same way about me. I graduated a year earlier from college than she did and I assumed that keeping in touch would be no problem because it's not that hard to pick up a phone and call someone once in a while. Boy was I wrong. She didn't return my calls, and if I did get a hold of her and make plans, 9 times out of 10 she'd break them. On the rare occasions that we did actually see each other it was like everything was back to normal and nothing had ever changed. If we'd lived in the same town maybe I could have pursued the friendship by just showing up at her door. But living in two different states, that just doesn't work. It made me sad but I had to let her go. I simply stopped calling and stopped trying to keep in touch with her. That was three years ago. It was very very painful for me although over the last year I've finally gotten over it and made peace with the situation. About six months ago I got a long letter from her apologizing and asking if we could still be friends. I wrote back and said yes of course we could, she could call me anytime. Even before sending it back I knew I wouldn't hear from her. And I haven't.

    Yes, I do think this is related to Fi, though it's Fi gone wrong. Healthy Fi does not look like that. My friend's behavior is not only a function of Fi but also of her being ridiculously far on the perceiver scale to the point where she seems unable to fulfill very basic obligations. She also smoked pot constantly and from what I understand dabbled in harder drugs. And she was on anti-depression medication. Although I don't know how much I can blame on the drug use because when she sent me that letter six months ago she claimed to be off drugs for good. But maybe now she prefers not to pursue the friendship because she's embarrassed by her past behavior? Who knows. Like I said, I've finally found some peace in the situation and am not really sad or angry with her anymore. Well, still a little sad, but I've accepted things.

  9. #129
    Senior Member Lightyear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwv6r View Post
    It made me sad but I had to let her go. I simply stopped calling and stopped trying to keep in touch with her. That was three years ago. It was very very painful for me although over the last year I've finally gotten over it and made peace with the situation. About six months ago I got a long letter from her apologizing and asking if we could still be friends. I wrote back and said yes of course we could, she could call me anytime. Even before sending it back I knew I wouldn't hear from her. And I haven't.
    The same with my INFP. When we are together it's like everything is back to normal cause as I said, we really get each other as people, I love her weird, random Ne thinking and she seems to be very intrigued by me.

    But the thing is even if I told her that I think she is just a shitty friend and could she please invest a little bit in the friendship by saying hello via email etc at least once every few months I don't think it would help much, she might promise to do it but would pretty quickly stop or forget about it since she "just doesn't feel like it". And unfortunately a friendship with zero communication isn't a friendship anymore, it's just a big nothing.

    Two days ago it was my birthday and I didn't hear from her at all (while I used to in the years before, even if she just sent me a text message) and with other people it wouldn't annoy me so much (sometimes people just forget) but with her it's just another nail in the coffin of the friendship because I am thinking: "I was unfortunately expecting that." I'll go back to Germany for two weeks in August and am thinking if I should contact her at all to meet up (also her birthday is around the time I will be in Berlin), and she would probably say yes but in some ways I just couldn't be arsed anymore. I have much better friends and people that don't just make me feel like I am investing me energy in a big black hole, so whatever. I am not really at the point yet where I can let the thing completely die but it might just fade away at some point soon.

  10. #130
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwv6r View Post
    About six months ago I got a long letter from her apologizing and asking if we could still be friends. I wrote back and said yes of course we could, she could call me anytime. Even before sending it back I knew I wouldn't hear from her. And I haven't.

    Yes, I do think this is related to Fi, though it's Fi gone wrong. Healthy Fi does not look like that. My friend's behavior is not only a function of Fi but also of her being ridiculously far on the perceiver scale to the point where she seems unable to fulfill very basic obligations.
    Some people make life happen, while others let life happen to them and react. I notice alot of INFPs fill the latter category.

    Her letter was likely a request that you reengage in your role of the 'friendship initiator'. She wants the friendship to return to how it was, because that's what she knows and is comfortable with.

    Lightyear and mwv6r:

    One thing I find a bit unfair in all of this is that the INFPs are just being who they are. They haven't changed, but rather your expectations of them as a friend have changed. Which is FINE. I agree that friendships are 2 way paths, and you have reached a point where you need maintenance of their part.

    However, it's a bit unfair that you drop them without having a serious conversation informing them of these changes!

    For example, the "she could call me anytime" thing is a good start, but considering the history of the friendship, I could easily see that as a polite dismissal. You were the one always calling THEM. That was the social contract you guys had engaged in. If you want to give the friendship the best chance it has to survive, you need to tell them what the new rules are so they can either change or decide it's no longer worth it.

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