[NF] Am I Bound to Help and Never Be Helped?

[Colors]

No one bound you into helping these people. That was your choice. Did you tell them at the outset you expected compensation? Did you explicitly state you needed help now? Did they say they needed your help?

You shouldn't do things for ("help") others expecting reciprocation. That sets you up for disappointment. You help others because it makes you feel good, or because you can, because you think it's an essential part of your identity. If you help someone beyond their capability of paying you back- should they feel torn-up inside for the rest of their lives trying to pay you back? I don't think so.

If this is a long-standing relationship, however, of course a "betrayal" of this sort will probably trend it towards dying (all relationships need to be feed and all that stuff). And that's the price you'll both pay- the decline of a relationship- for lack of support so to speak.

 

[Tiny Army]

Well someone beat me to the punch! Rock, Colours!

Seriously, though. How many people actively asked you for help prior to you helping them? I have NFJ friends who keep trying to solve my "relationship problems" when I not only don't have relationship problems they are none of their business. That's not "being helpful" that's meddling.

If you offer unrequested help for some reason (I am going to assume personal gratification here) you lose the right to whinge about reciprocation.

NFs seem to always believe that we can "read people." We know what they really need. But unless you are an Omega level mutant and can prove your telepathy to me I do not buy it. It is not POSSIBLE to know what someone else really feels no matter how much your intuition tells you it is. It is therefore unreasonable to tailor all your actions to those ideas.

 

[fill]

SilkRoad, your post speaks all kinds of truths to me. Thanks a ton for sharing!

No one bound you into helping these people. That was your choice. Did you tell them at the outset you expected compensation? Did you explicitly state you needed help now? Did they say they needed your help?

Nobody has bound me to do anything. I can live how I want; I can be the most selfish person I can be, but for some reason our race (or maybe it's just me) has a defect called a complex personality, where we want to strive for greater things. Being selfless is the basis of being great; but nobody realizes this. We can either follow our minds and what's good for the whole of humanity or we can follow our shitty natural instincts to survive and think about solely ourselves.

You shouldn't do things for ("help") others expecting reciprocation. That sets you up for disappointment. You help others because it makes you feel good, or because you can, because you think it's an essential part of your identity.

I don't expect reciprocation; and, again, I don't help people for me, I help people for people.

"If you help someone beyond their capability of paying you back- should they feel torn-up inside for the rest of their lives trying to pay you back? I don't think so."

Neither do I. Neither did this Buddhist monk. I don't want to be paid back, I want to be recognized; I want to stop being ignored because, like SilkRoad said, I'm not an "interesting" person, but I'm more than willing to go to extreme lengths just for a "thanks," but people are to damn selfish to even do that.

If this is a long-standing relationship, however, of course a "betrayal" of this sort will probably trend it towards dying (all relationships need to be feed and all that stuff). And that's the price you'll both pay- the decline of a relationship- for lack of support so to speak."

A relationship with an unsaid, selfless support between two people are the ones I strive for, and in my experience, they tend to last for a very long time.

Economica, I really can't give you a specific example of what has happened to me, but I can give you a hypothetical situation: Say you've been spending time with your good friend for a long time. Your friend hardly ever pays for anything when you go out, but their company is enough to keep you satisfied. You've never brought money up with your friend in your life. One day they're forced to pay for you because you left your wallet at home. Your friend does so, but tells you to pay them back in the exact amount that you owe them for that day.

 

[fill]

Seriously, though. How many people actively asked you for help prior to you helping them? I have NFJ friends who keep trying to solve my "relationship problems" when I not only don't have relationship problems they are none of their business. That's not "being helpful" that's meddling.

Er, I'm sorry that's happened to you, but that's far from what I do. Hardly anyone asks me for help; I tend to ask people if they need help. If a friend of mine was having relationship problems, I wouldn't bluntly tell them how I see the situation, but it still depends on the moment. I'm assuming your friend simply brings up the matter of your relationship? I'm quite the opposite; I would never be so bold to simply point out somebody's flaws unless they're open to me doing so (which means they bring it up).

"If you offer unrequested help for some reason (I am going to assume personal gratification here) you lose the right to whinge about reciprocation."

Read my response to Colors where I address this.

"NFs seem to always believe that we can "read people." We know what they really need. But unless you are an Omega level mutant and can prove your telepathy to me I do not buy it. It is not POSSIBLE to know what someone else really feels no matter how much your intuition tells you it is. It is therefore unreasonable to tailor all your actions to those ideas."

I really want to disagree, but due to my high level of intuition, I have absolutely no facts to give against your argument, I can only simply say this: I've been able to read some people like a book. (Oh yeah, you could read micro-expressions. Have you ever seen Lie to Me?) I said this earlier:

"Here's an example: my ENFP friend is extremely intuitive and perceiving. I've had classes with him, and if the teacher says something that I would probably contort into a sexual joke, I can literally look at him, and we'll both bust out laughing."

 

[Tiny Army]

That's adorable anecdotal evidence! No, this is not how it works. Being able to make guesses about your close friends' feelings does not equal ultimate empath who knows what is best for the world. And you cannot be certain that you read someone like a book. I will often agree when someone tells me what they think I'm feeling because it's easier than letting them know how I actually feel. It keeps me more protected. Yes we are intuitive types and that's awesome but all our intuition (especially yours my good Ni dom) happens in our heads not in the real world and therefore doesn't always actually apply.

And if you "help people for people" this thread would never have happened. You already expressed unhappiness with people not helping you. The title of this thread itself indicates that. You need to explore what it is you actually have a problem with because there are contradictions all up ins. I can understand wanting a thank you for being helpful or caring but unless you were asked for help you don't have any right to ask for a thank you.

 

[fill]

That's adorable anecdotal evidence! No, this is not how it works. Being able to make guesses about your close friends' feelings does not equal ultimate empath who knows what is best for the world. And you cannot be certain that you read someone like a book. I will often agree when someone tells me what they think I'm feeling because it's easier than letting them know how I actually feel. It keeps me more protected. Yes we are intuitive types and that's awesome but all our intuition (especially yours my good Ni dom) happens in our heads not in the real world and therefore doesn't always actually apply.

That's a great point! But I do see things the opposite way: I try to see what's best for the world through a set of morals and then apply to others.

And if you "help people for people" this thread would never have happened. You already expressed unhappiness with people not helping you. The title of this thread itself indicates that. You need to explore what it is you actually have a problem with because there are contradictions all up ins. I can understand wanting a thank you for being helpful or caring but unless you were asked for help you don't have any right to ask for a thank you.

Haha, that's very true. I think we addressed my problem a few pages back, which is being too indirect. As for the contradictions: I'm full of them. And for this I apologize. But I still feel as if you're missing my point. I'm not trying to be repaid for all of the things I've done, I simply want to be appreciated and recognized for them in the most unselfish way possible (I don't want a statue built of me-- but it would be nice). The difference is slight, but at the same time immense (more contradictions).

 

[Tiny Army]

The fact you think it would be nice theoretically to have a statue built for you indicates that deep down inside you want outward appreciation for your actions but it is in direct conflict with your beliefs and ideas about "selflessness." Humans are naturally selfish creatures. Until we breed, our survival is the most important thing to us. I think being perceived as unselfish is more important to you than actually being unselfish in some ways (which is natural so don't feel like I'm attacking you or you should feel bad). Why is being "unselfish" so important to you and what does it mean to you?

 

[kiddykat]

Sometimes, when people don't offer it back or give back, it's not personal.. Sometimes, they're going through a rough patch? Or they don't feel confident enough to reciprocate in return? Whatever it is, it's beneficial to give when we give freely, because that's a more light-hearted way of dealing with things in life, in general..

I think that when we offer to help someone, just let it be that. Who cares if we get anything back in return. Sometimes, people are in their own head-space for things. So long as you know what the intent is, then I think that would be good enough, correct?

 

[Tiny Army]

That's a great point! But I do see things the opposite way: I try to see what's best for the world through a set of morals and then apply to others.

I also disagree with this statement considerably. Seeing the world "through a set of morals" that you then apply to everyone is unfair because it doesn't take into account that morals are a personal thing. There is no such thing as a universal value system. I think the closest we can get is "do not murder people" but even then the definition of murder is disputed. Seeing things through one person's set of morals is not what is best for anyone. It is what leads to fascist cultures as demonstrated in many fundamentalist Islamic republics and is even apparent in the Salem witch trials.

My morals guide my own decisions. Facts are what guide the help I provide to others. It is not my place to impose my morals upon anyone but myself. I don't think it is anyone's.

(Similarly you are welcome to lead your life as you please. I simply disagree with your statements.)

 

[kyuuei]

I'm always under the belief that if someone abuses my hand-outs, and mistakes my kindness for weakness, that I am the only one to blame. There comes a point where I have to man-up and realize that the only person's actions I can control are my own, and make decisions in my best interest.

I'm not going to go so far as to say if someone manipulates you it's your fault.. but you must recognize that no one forces these things to you at gun point. You have to find your own particular balance between the "It doesn't matter what THEY do, it's what I do" to "They've drained me of everything" scale. If you get upset when people don't reciprocate the work you give to them, then you need to check yourself when you offer your services to others, and check yourself when you try to justify your overly kind nature by saying you'd 'feel bad' if you didn't help at all.

I would also mention that people show affection in different ways. You may show your affection to friends and such by working for them.. but kind words may be all they require, or how they show affection. I could easily see those two languages being miscommunicated.

 

[MrME]

The title says it all. I've always found that I give out so much energy to help everybody, yet nobody will return the favor. This would bother me more if I didn't have the spark in me that, "everyone will help everyone if I start the trend," but the thought still depresses the hell out of me.

Have any other NFs-- or INFJs-- ever felt this way?

Yes.

Remember that when you do favors for people, you should not expect anything in return. To expect favors in return is not healthy -- they're favors after all, right? If you do a favor for somebody and they don't return the favor, and then you punish them in some way for it, that's passive-aggressive manipulation. Not healthy.

These days I will only do big favors for close friends and family. I DO return favors for favors, but that is my choice, my standard to live by, and I don't expect anything more of it.

 

[fill]

I also disagree with this statement considerably. Seeing the world "through a set of morals" that you then apply to everyone is unfair because it doesn't take into account that morals are a personal thing. There is no such thing as a universal value system. I think the closest we can get is "do not murder people" but even then the definition of murder is disputed. Seeing things through one person's set of morals is not what is best for anyone. It is what leads to fascist cultures as demonstrated in many fundamentalist Islamic republics and is even apparent in the Salem witch trials.

Um... yes this does take into account that morals are a personal things; those are part of my morals. I refuse to enforce my morals (why would I be so indirect if I did so?), and if I display my morals to others-- even in the slightest way-- they might see mine as acceptable. "Do not murder people" isn't a moral, it's a rule. "Murder is wrong" is a moral. Since when was I seeing things through only my own perspective? I don't think you really can fairly judge my morals until you know what they really are. The fact that I contrast people against my morals can be a totally open-minded way of thinking. If I find that somebody's morals are more constructive to the human race than my current ones, I'll be more than willing to change mine.

My morals guide my own decisions. Facts are what guide the help I provide to others. It is not my place to impose my morals upon anyone but myself. I don't think it is anyone's.

Of course it isn't. I think if everyone had an open mind to question their beliefs, the "good" ones would come out. Still, "Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes." -Gandhi

The fact you think it would be nice theoretically to have a statue built for you indicates that deep down inside you want outward appreciation for your actions but it is in direct conflict with your beliefs and ideas about "selflessness."

Hah, that was a bad attempt at a joke. I would rather see the impalpable results of my actions than to have a statue built of me.

Humans are naturally selfish creatures. Until we breed, our survival is the most important thing to us. I think being perceived as unselfish is more important to you than actually being unselfish in some ways (which is natural so don't feel like I'm attacking you or you should feel bad). Why is being "unselfish" so important to you and what does it mean to you?

I suppose you could say I want to look unselfish, but in essence, I would much rather simply live unselfishly. I took a stab at writing philosophy, and selfishness was what I narrowed down to what was essentially destructive human behavior. I believe our natural want for survival creates a focus on the self which becomes more than just survival, but a willingness to put another at a disadvantage for the benefit of one's own. This same selfishness is what creates an ignorance of, "My view is right, and yours is wrong," and instead of constructing on each other, we keep to ourselves and eventually wither away with no advancement of the human race as a whole. Being unselfish is what I believe to be constructive to the human race as a whole (and even other races). After writing my philosophy, I ended up reading up on Buddhist philosophy, and the amount of similarities was eerie.

 

[fill]

By the way, I think I've refined what bothers me about "helping but not being helped." I'm not concerned with people returning favors, rather I feel as if I'm alone in the journey to help others. Obviously I'm not the only selfless (or at least trying-to-be-selfless) person in the world, but it seems as if I would be selfless for others, yet others would only be selfish to me whether I've helped them or not.

 

[Tiny Army]

But by wanting others to be as selfless as you strive to be aren't you implying that your way of thinking is correct and that of others is wrong?

Your last post makes more sense and is fairly illuminating about your personality and your outlook. I think universal selflessness is theoretically a nice idea but it is impractical. Basically I like to think in terms of "If the zombiepocalypse were to happen right now, how helpful would this be?" and your outlook seems like it would be in a pretty grim place come the end times.

Also for you personally. I think this might cause you a great deal of pain in your life as I have seen it do to many other NFJs.

Additionally I have come to understand that you seem to be selfless towards the greater goal of inspiring selflessness in others. So in practice, you are behaving selflessly in order to passively coerce someone into behaving the way you behave. Sounds kinda selfish to me!

I'm sorry if I'm beating a dead horse but this debate is fascinating and I think you can hold your own.

 

[Lightyear]

By the way, I think I've refined what bothers me about "helping but not being helped." I'm not concerned with people returning favors, rather I feel as if I'm alone in the journey to help others. Obviously I'm not the only selfless (or at least trying-to-be-selfless) person in the world, but it seems as if I would be selfless for others, yet others would only be selfish to me whether I've helped them or not.

I know exactly how you are feeling. I don't care if others return favours to me (Though a simple "Thank you." would be nice since it recharges my batteries and encourages me to keep on giving.), I just sometimes feel like a lone ranger trying to be giving while most people don't seem to see the need for putting others before themselves and it is just exhausting. I really don't want to go around preaching at people that "You must give!", I am not their moral guardian, but I believe things would go a lot smoother in the world if people weren't so bloody selfish or self-obsessed. To me it's clear as day and it frustrates me that others can't see it and instead come up with a lot of evolutionary blah blah about why being selfish is actually the right thing to do.

But by wanting others to be as selfless as you strive to be aren't you implying that your way of thinking is correct and that of others is wrong?

It's funny how you approach the concept of selflessness from a logical and rational point of view while for an INFJ it is all about inner convictions and what FEELS right. To me personally having a debate about it seems a bit pointless; it's all about seeing a person in need, realising that you can help this person and doing so (while not trying to completely exhaust my resources and energy). Giving just feels like the right thing to do, I actually enjoy making other people feel happy, and even if all logical arguments would point towards "Selfishness is best!" I don't think I could do it for a long time, I would just start feeling unhappy at some point. I guess it would actually cause an NFJ in the long run more pain not to consider other people and their feelings, it just goes against who we are and how we relate to the world.

Also I really don't get this argument why selfishness is better in the long run. Did selflessness cause the worst recession since the 1930s? I don't think so. Does selflessness lead to pollution and global warming? Nope.

I understand that one shouldn't be naive but as NFJs we can see the bigger picture and how our moral actions influence the world on a big scale so it just seems stupid to us to behave completely selfish because in the long run it will destroy relationships and communities.

Additionally I have come to understand that you seem to be selfless towards the greater goal of inspiring selflessness in others. So in practice, you are behaving selflessly in order to passively coerce someone into behaving the way you behave. Sounds kinda selfish to me!

Oh come on! So it was selfish of Martin Luther King to inspire others to fight for justice and coerce them into fighting for the rights of the disadvantaged?

You are completely missing the point. Inspiring selflessness in others is not about me having this evil world domination masterplan where I want everyone to behave like me and believe what I believe, instead it's about seeing the bigger picture, seeing that some things are pretty messed up in this world and trying to start a trend that will benefit everyone.

I can only speak for myself, but I am honestly NOT power hungry and I don't care about attention, money or fame, it is sincerely about making a difference and feeling like I have actually accomplished something good and worthy with my life. I am perfectly happy just watching from the sidelines how all my efforts slowly unfold and bear positive fruit.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

I'm sorry if I'm beating a dead horse but this debate is fascinating and I think you can hold your own.

Tiny, the point is that you are approaching from this from your perspective, which is not an INFJ's perspective. It does seem you are miscontruing things here; from the vantage point of an INFJ. If you hope to ever get to the point where you are not talking past each other, you need to approach the situation the way an INFJ would (if that is possible).

 

[Mondo]

This is why I love NF's!!
I appreciate everything my NF buddies do.

I'm also one to regularly return favors, .
Especially since there are so many times where I'll reject an NF's offer to help.. so I tend to really appreciate it when I actually NEED the help.

 

[Tiny Army]

I think that NFJs have an inaccurate view of what "selflessness" and giving to others means. I have seen NFJ after NFJ turn selflessness into a "me against the world" scenario and I think as an NF I have every right to point out the opposite perspective to these things.


I think attempting to coerce the world or other people into doing anything is wrong. I am sick and tired of subversive NFJ favour trickery and I am tired of being bound into friendships I never thought were that important anyway by NFJs obsessed with "community values" and the idea of "that's what friends do." Firstly I have no clue how you NFJs interpret selflessness at all and if you keep contradicting yourselves I am going to sit here and point out the holes in your logic until you get off your NFJ high horses and debate this without the howling and whining and "We do it because it feels good and then go on a forum and bitch about how used and hard done by we are! But aren't we just SO NOBLE!"

If I am expected to see this from an INFJ perspective I think you owe it to me just as much to see it from an ENFP perspective because this kind of behaviour and tossing around of the word "selfish" is a pet peeve of mine and if INFJs really cared so much about everyone else they should at least be interested in the potential discomfort their actions cause.

 

[Mondo]

I am sick and tired of subversive NFJ favour trickery and I am tired of being bound into friendships I never thought were that important anyway by NFJs obsessed with "community values" and the idea of "that's what friends do." Firstly I have no clue how you NFJs interpret selflessness at all and if you keep contradicting yourselves I am going to sit here and point out the holes in your logic until you get off your NFJ high horses and debate this without the howling and whining and "We do it because it feels good and then go on a forum and bitch about how used and hard done by we are! But aren't we just SO NOBLE!"

I think this is often true of NFPs as well- and of Feelers, in general.

My ISFP sister will point out the selfish behaviors of others and often be selfish and manipulative herself- seeing others' faults so easily but not her own.

I think it's great to want to help others but to declare yourself almighty and noble- that's just.. kind of dumb.. unless you want me being a jackass and showing all the reasons why you are not so noble and selfless.. which I often will do to my sister.

I'll be critical and judgmental of others but at least I acknowledge my own faults.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

I think that NFJs have an inaccurate view of what "selflessness" and giving to others means.

I haven't read this whole thread, just sort of skimmed it. So I don't which view you are talking about, exactly.

I have seen NFJ after NFJ turn selflessness into a "me against the world" scenario and I think as an NF I have every right to point out the opposite perspective to these things.

Can't say I'm familiar with that scenario. Btw, are you talking about INFJs or ENFJs, or both? I do believe the two have different perceptions of what giving means and go about in different ways.

I think attempting to coerce the world or other people into doing anything is wrong. I am sick and tired of subversive NFJ favour trickery and I am tired of being bound into friendships I never thought were that important anyway by NFJs obsessed with "community values" and the idea of "that's what friends do." Firstly I have no clue how you NFJs interpret selflessness at all and if you keep contradicting yourselves I am going to sit here and point out the holes in your logic until you get off your NFJ high horses and debate this without the howling and whining and "We do it because it feels good and then go on a forum and bitch about how used and hard done by we are! But aren't we just SO NOBLE!"

I guess you have issues with (E/I)NFJs? I don't think that has much to do with the OP's situation.

If I am expected to see this from an INFJ perspective I think you owe it to me just as much to see it from an ENFP perspective because this kind of behaviour and tossing around of the word "selfish" is a pet peeve of mine and if INFJs really cared so much about everyone else they should at least be interested in the potential discomfort their actions cause.

Again, I only skimmed the thread for the major points, so where selfishness got introduced, I have no idea.