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  1. #61
    Senior Member Tiny Army's Avatar
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    Then I guess you should read the thread.

    What I am trying to say is I have seen NFs, especially NFJs (both E and INFJs. I have a lot of them in my life.) complain about how "self absorbed" the other party is while simultaneously positing that they themselves are not that way at all and are constantly striving to be selfless and do things for the good of all. I find that view point to be somewhat, well, self absorbed. There are countless threads begun by E/INFJs on this forum where the central point of discussion is someone else's selfishness. There's one on the first page right now! ("Are selfishness and Fi related?")

    You are in fact correct about how E/INFJs differ in their views about selfishness and giving to others. What I have gathered from the contents of this thread is that INFJs perceive selflessness as doing a helpful act for another party for the pure sake of making the other party's life a better place. Apparently this is even more selfless if the help is unsolicited.

    What I am arguing is that if this is in fact the case then selflessness should reject any desire for thanks because to do so would be selfish and therefore tarnish the entire act as selfish. I also disapprove of the idea of unsolicited help because I have had NFJs come into my life with a genuine desire to help me (when I didn't think I needed help) and then made everything worse because they didn't understand the entirety of the situation.

    Perhaps my understanding of the INFJ concept of selflessness is incorrect in which case I hope that the INFJs on this forum will enlighten me as to what their opinion of selfishness is.
    Anger is also a feeling.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Hendo Barbarosa's Avatar
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    hey everyone, I just wanted to say, I mean, I didn't read this thread. So, I don't really know, like, what it's about...but I just wanted to say I think I disagree. In fact, I think I strongly disagree.

    About what, well, I'm not exactly sure, I haven't really read this thread.


  3. #63
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    ^Cute.

  4. #64
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    And SOOOOOO INTJ!

  5. #65
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Army View Post
    Then I guess you should read the thread.
    I skimmed it, so I had the major points. I just didn't have the details. But I've read it now and I still stand by my points.

    What I am arguing is that if this is in fact the case then selflessness should reject any desire for thanks because to do so would be selfish and therefore tarnish the entire act as selfish. I also disapprove of the idea of unsolicited help because I have had NFJs come into my life with a genuine desire to help me (when I didn't think I needed help) and then made everything worse because they didn't understand the entirety of the situation.
    I do think it is ironic that you are lamenting that NFJs want to push their ideas of how a person should give on to another, yet you turn around and say "No NFJs, this is the right way to approach it." The point is that different types will have different ways that they feel they can contribute, and none is necessarily better than the other.

    Perhaps my understanding of the INFJ concept of selflessness is incorrect in which case I hope that the INFJs on this forum will enlighten me as to what their opinion of selfishness is.
    It is very erroneous. But saying "you are wrong," isn't going to encourage anyone to do that.

  6. #66
    Senior Member Tiny Army's Avatar
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    I didn't say you have to conform to my way of thinking. I'm just making my points so that you will respond with yours and everyone will get a better understanding of the other's opinion. I thought that this was how discussions worked. I never said my point was right and yours was wrong. I am just saying that I have a point.

    What is your definition of selfishness, Lauren and why do you think my point is wrong?

    Edit: Looking back I understand that my comments did sound aggressive and I would like to say that this is not a personal attack on anyone or their opinions. This is how I learn, by arguing and breaking down other peoples' opinions in order to see where they fit into mine. What I was trying to do is provoke a counter argument and I am sorry if I did it wrong.
    Anger is also a feeling.

  7. #67
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Army View Post
    I didn't say you have to conform to my way of thinking.
    You might as well have.

    I'm just making my points so that you will respond with yours and everyone will get a better understanding of the other's opinion. I thought that this was how discussions worked.
    But you came in to this discussion already believing that the other side was misguided in their views. And you just kept hammering that home. How can you ever reach an understanding if you hold on to that?

    I never said my point was right and yours was wrong.
    Utterly false.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Army View Post
    How many people actively asked you for help prior to you helping them? I have NFJ friends who keep trying to solve my "relationship problems" when I not only don't have relationship problems they are none of their business. That's not "being helpful" that's meddling.
    In other words, "you're wrong."

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Army View Post
    It is not POSSIBLE to know what someone else really feels no matter how much your intuition tells you it is. It is therefore unreasonable to tailor all your actions to those ideas.
    In other words, "you're wrong."

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Army View Post
    I think that NFJs have an inaccurate view of what "selflessness" and giving to others means.
    In other words, "you're wrong."

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Army View Post
    What is your definition of selfishness, Lauren and why do you think my point is wrong?
    I don't have any hard and fast rules on what constitutes selfishness. Your point isn't wrong, if that's the way you approach things, great. But that's unique to you, and everyone won't feel the same way.

  8. #68
    "Everything in its place" fill's Avatar
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    Tiny Army, can you please stop calling me selfish if you yourself admit you don't have the same perspective of what it is as I do?

    You assume that I'm "complaining," which I suppose is what you call it when a person is sharing a feeling they have. I'm not complaining, I'm expressing dissatisfaction in others' inability to treat me the same way I treat them. Complaining implies I'm clinging to this fact-- I'm not. If I wanted to complain, I would have addressed the subject in the most immature of ways.

    But you're doing something that annoys the hell out of me: you're misconstruing my intentions. Part of Buddhism's Noble Eightfold Path is "right intention," which comes with helping others for others, not one's own satisfaction. Satisfaction comes naturally with good intention with the realization that what has been done has spread a good effect. But here's the thing: I'm a human. I have emotions. I get discouraged-- especially when I don't see anyone other than myself being selfless.
    "Poor bastard. Wait 'till he sees the bats. "
    enneagram - 7/5/3

  9. #69
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    *sigh*

    Fi users.

    People don't bind others to be as selfless as they are, they just forget sometimes to say what they need and give others the chance to help them too.


    And although the OP was kinda whiny and indirectly directive, still it was, more or less, a statement of what he needs. People's Ns may be pouncing on the wrong parts of the message.


    And Peace came upon the land, at the word of the kindly, avuncular INTJ, and later many people woke up with their wallets missing. Bye!

  10. #70
    Senior Member Lightyear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Army View Post

    What I am arguing is that if this is in fact the case then selflessness should reject any desire for thanks because to do so would be selfish and therefore tarnish the entire act as selfish. I also disapprove of the idea of unsolicited help because I have had NFJs come into my life with a genuine desire to help me (when I didn't think I needed help) and then made everything worse because they didn't understand the entirety of the situation.
    Firstly, I don't give unsolicited help, it's a waste of my time and energy. I am also not going to force my help on you if I realise that you are not interested since again it is just going to drain me for no good reason.

    Secondly what's so bad about liking to hear a "Thank you."? As I said before it recharges me and makes me want to keep on giving, it's like a tiny portion of superpowered fuel that can keep my engine running for a long time. But even if I don't get a "Thank you." it makes me happy to see that my actions have resulted in positive fruit, like fill I am perfectly content watching things positively unfold while standing in the background.

    I think you are just really hard on NFJs by judging their entire act to be tarnished just because they enjoy to hear a thanks. We are human for heaven's sake and not some neverending well of generosity. At some point our batteries run out just like everyone else's so getting even some tiny bit of positive reinforcement from outside ourselves can help us immensely and recharge us.

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