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  1. #51
    Senior Member MrME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fill View Post
    The title says it all. I've always found that I give out so much energy to help everybody, yet nobody will return the favor. This would bother me more if I didn't have the spark in me that, "everyone will help everyone if I start the trend," but the thought still depresses the hell out of me.

    Have any other NFs-- or INFJs-- ever felt this way?
    Yes.

    Remember that when you do favors for people, you should not expect anything in return. To expect favors in return is not healthy -- they're favors after all, right? If you do a favor for somebody and they don't return the favor, and then you punish them in some way for it, that's passive-aggressive manipulation. Not healthy.

    These days I will only do big favors for close friends and family. I DO return favors for favors, but that is my choice, my standard to live by, and I don't expect anything more of it.
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  2. #52
    "Everything in its place" fill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Army View Post
    I also disagree with this statement considerably. Seeing the world "through a set of morals" that you then apply to everyone is unfair because it doesn't take into account that morals are a personal thing. There is no such thing as a universal value system. I think the closest we can get is "do not murder people" but even then the definition of murder is disputed. Seeing things through one person's set of morals is not what is best for anyone. It is what leads to fascist cultures as demonstrated in many fundamentalist Islamic republics and is even apparent in the Salem witch trials.
    Um... yes this does take into account that morals are a personal things; those are part of my morals. I refuse to enforce my morals (why would I be so indirect if I did so?), and if I display my morals to others-- even in the slightest way-- they might see mine as acceptable. "Do not murder people" isn't a moral, it's a rule. "Murder is wrong" is a moral. Since when was I seeing things through only my own perspective? I don't think you really can fairly judge my morals until you know what they really are. The fact that I contrast people against my morals can be a totally open-minded way of thinking. If I find that somebody's morals are more constructive to the human race than my current ones, I'll be more than willing to change mine.

    My morals guide my own decisions. Facts are what guide the help I provide to others. It is not my place to impose my morals upon anyone but myself. I don't think it is anyone's.
    Of course it isn't. I think if everyone had an open mind to question their beliefs, the "good" ones would come out. Still, "Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes." -Gandhi

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Army View Post
    The fact you think it would be nice theoretically to have a statue built for you indicates that deep down inside you want outward appreciation for your actions but it is in direct conflict with your beliefs and ideas about "selflessness."
    Hah, that was a bad attempt at a joke. I would rather see the impalpable results of my actions than to have a statue built of me.

    Humans are naturally selfish creatures. Until we breed, our survival is the most important thing to us. I think being perceived as unselfish is more important to you than actually being unselfish in some ways (which is natural so don't feel like I'm attacking you or you should feel bad). Why is being "unselfish" so important to you and what does it mean to you?
    I suppose you could say I want to look unselfish, but in essence, I would much rather simply live unselfishly. I took a stab at writing philosophy, and selfishness was what I narrowed down to what was essentially destructive human behavior. I believe our natural want for survival creates a focus on the self which becomes more than just survival, but a willingness to put another at a disadvantage for the benefit of one's own. This same selfishness is what creates an ignorance of, "My view is right, and yours is wrong," and instead of constructing on each other, we keep to ourselves and eventually wither away with no advancement of the human race as a whole. Being unselfish is what I believe to be constructive to the human race as a whole (and even other races). After writing my philosophy, I ended up reading up on Buddhist philosophy, and the amount of similarities was eerie.
    "Poor bastard. Wait 'till he sees the bats. "
    enneagram - 7/5/3

  3. #53
    "Everything in its place" fill's Avatar
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    By the way, I think I've refined what bothers me about "helping but not being helped." I'm not concerned with people returning favors, rather I feel as if I'm alone in the journey to help others. Obviously I'm not the only selfless (or at least trying-to-be-selfless) person in the world, but it seems as if I would be selfless for others, yet others would only be selfish to me whether I've helped them or not.
    "Poor bastard. Wait 'till he sees the bats. "
    enneagram - 7/5/3

  4. #54
    Senior Member Tiny Army's Avatar
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    But by wanting others to be as selfless as you strive to be aren't you implying that your way of thinking is correct and that of others is wrong?

    Your last post makes more sense and is fairly illuminating about your personality and your outlook. I think universal selflessness is theoretically a nice idea but it is impractical. Basically I like to think in terms of "If the zombiepocalypse were to happen right now, how helpful would this be?" and your outlook seems like it would be in a pretty grim place come the end times.

    Also for you personally. I think this might cause you a great deal of pain in your life as I have seen it do to many other NFJs.

    Additionally I have come to understand that you seem to be selfless towards the greater goal of inspiring selflessness in others. So in practice, you are behaving selflessly in order to passively coerce someone into behaving the way you behave. Sounds kinda selfish to me!

    I'm sorry if I'm beating a dead horse but this debate is fascinating and I think you can hold your own.
    Anger is also a feeling.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Lightyear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fill View Post
    By the way, I think I've refined what bothers me about "helping but not being helped." I'm not concerned with people returning favors, rather I feel as if I'm alone in the journey to help others. Obviously I'm not the only selfless (or at least trying-to-be-selfless) person in the world, but it seems as if I would be selfless for others, yet others would only be selfish to me whether I've helped them or not.
    I know exactly how you are feeling. I don't care if others return favours to me (Though a simple "Thank you." would be nice since it recharges my batteries and encourages me to keep on giving.), I just sometimes feel like a lone ranger trying to be giving while most people don't seem to see the need for putting others before themselves and it is just exhausting. I really don't want to go around preaching at people that "You must give!", I am not their moral guardian, but I believe things would go a lot smoother in the world if people weren't so bloody selfish or self-obsessed. To me it's clear as day and it frustrates me that others can't see it and instead come up with a lot of evolutionary blah blah about why being selfish is actually the right thing to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Army View Post
    But by wanting others to be as selfless as you strive to be aren't you implying that your way of thinking is correct and that of others is wrong?
    It's funny how you approach the concept of selflessness from a logical and rational point of view while for an INFJ it is all about inner convictions and what FEELS right. To me personally having a debate about it seems a bit pointless; it's all about seeing a person in need, realising that you can help this person and doing so (while not trying to completely exhaust my resources and energy). Giving just feels like the right thing to do, I actually enjoy making other people feel happy, and even if all logical arguments would point towards "Selfishness is best!" I don't think I could do it for a long time, I would just start feeling unhappy at some point. I guess it would actually cause an NFJ in the long run more pain not to consider other people and their feelings, it just goes against who we are and how we relate to the world.

    Also I really don't get this argument why selfishness is better in the long run. Did selflessness cause the worst recession since the 1930s? I don't think so. Does selflessness lead to pollution and global warming? Nope.

    I understand that one shouldn't be naive but as NFJs we can see the bigger picture and how our moral actions influence the world on a big scale so it just seems stupid to us to behave completely selfish because in the long run it will destroy relationships and communities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Army View Post
    Additionally I have come to understand that you seem to be selfless towards the greater goal of inspiring selflessness in others. So in practice, you are behaving selflessly in order to passively coerce someone into behaving the way you behave. Sounds kinda selfish to me!
    Oh come on! So it was selfish of Martin Luther King to inspire others to fight for justice and coerce them into fighting for the rights of the disadvantaged?

    You are completely missing the point. Inspiring selflessness in others is not about me having this evil world domination masterplan where I want everyone to behave like me and believe what I believe, instead it's about seeing the bigger picture, seeing that some things are pretty messed up in this world and trying to start a trend that will benefit everyone.

    I can only speak for myself, but I am honestly NOT power hungry and I don't care about attention, money or fame, it is sincerely about making a difference and feeling like I have actually accomplished something good and worthy with my life. I am perfectly happy just watching from the sidelines how all my efforts slowly unfold and bear positive fruit.

  6. #56
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Army View Post
    I'm sorry if I'm beating a dead horse but this debate is fascinating and I think you can hold your own.
    Tiny, the point is that you are approaching from this from your perspective, which is not an INFJ's perspective. It does seem you are miscontruing things here; from the vantage point of an INFJ. If you hope to ever get to the point where you are not talking past each other, you need to approach the situation the way an INFJ would (if that is possible).

  7. #57
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    This is why I love NF's!!
    I appreciate everything my NF buddies do.

    I'm also one to regularly return favors, .
    Especially since there are so many times where I'll reject an NF's offer to help.. so I tend to really appreciate it when I actually NEED the help.
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  8. #58
    Senior Member Tiny Army's Avatar
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    I think that NFJs have an inaccurate view of what "selflessness" and giving to others means. I have seen NFJ after NFJ turn selflessness into a "me against the world" scenario and I think as an NF I have every right to point out the opposite perspective to these things.


    I think attempting to coerce the world or other people into doing anything is wrong. I am sick and tired of subversive NFJ favour trickery and I am tired of being bound into friendships I never thought were that important anyway by NFJs obsessed with "community values" and the idea of "that's what friends do." Firstly I have no clue how you NFJs interpret selflessness at all and if you keep contradicting yourselves I am going to sit here and point out the holes in your logic until you get off your NFJ high horses and debate this without the howling and whining and "We do it because it feels good and then go on a forum and bitch about how used and hard done by we are! But aren't we just SO NOBLE!"

    If I am expected to see this from an INFJ perspective I think you owe it to me just as much to see it from an ENFP perspective because this kind of behaviour and tossing around of the word "selfish" is a pet peeve of mine and if INFJs really cared so much about everyone else they should at least be interested in the potential discomfort their actions cause.
    Anger is also a feeling.

  9. #59
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Army
    I am sick and tired of subversive NFJ favour trickery and I am tired of being bound into friendships I never thought were that important anyway by NFJs obsessed with "community values" and the idea of "that's what friends do." Firstly I have no clue how you NFJs interpret selflessness at all and if you keep contradicting yourselves I am going to sit here and point out the holes in your logic until you get off your NFJ high horses and debate this without the howling and whining and "We do it because it feels good and then go on a forum and bitch about how used and hard done by we are! But aren't we just SO NOBLE!"
    I think this is often true of NFPs as well- and of Feelers, in general.

    My ISFP sister will point out the selfish behaviors of others and often be selfish and manipulative herself- seeing others' faults so easily but not her own.

    I think it's great to want to help others but to declare yourself almighty and noble- that's just.. kind of dumb.. unless you want me being a jackass and showing all the reasons why you are not so noble and selfless.. which I often will do to my sister.

    I'll be critical and judgmental of others but at least I acknowledge my own faults.
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  10. #60
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Army View Post
    I think that NFJs have an inaccurate view of what "selflessness" and giving to others means.
    I haven't read this whole thread, just sort of skimmed it. So I don't which view you are talking about, exactly.

    I have seen NFJ after NFJ turn selflessness into a "me against the world" scenario and I think as an NF I have every right to point out the opposite perspective to these things.
    Can't say I'm familiar with that scenario. Btw, are you talking about INFJs or ENFJs, or both? I do believe the two have different perceptions of what giving means and go about in different ways.

    I think attempting to coerce the world or other people into doing anything is wrong. I am sick and tired of subversive NFJ favour trickery and I am tired of being bound into friendships I never thought were that important anyway by NFJs obsessed with "community values" and the idea of "that's what friends do." Firstly I have no clue how you NFJs interpret selflessness at all and if you keep contradicting yourselves I am going to sit here and point out the holes in your logic until you get off your NFJ high horses and debate this without the howling and whining and "We do it because it feels good and then go on a forum and bitch about how used and hard done by we are! But aren't we just SO NOBLE!"
    I guess you have issues with (E/I)NFJs? I don't think that has much to do with the OP's situation.

    If I am expected to see this from an INFJ perspective I think you owe it to me just as much to see it from an ENFP perspective because this kind of behaviour and tossing around of the word "selfish" is a pet peeve of mine and if INFJs really cared so much about everyone else they should at least be interested in the potential discomfort their actions cause.
    Again, I only skimmed the thread for the major points, so where selfishness got introduced, I have no idea.

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