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  1. #41
    The Destroyer Colors's Avatar
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    No one bound you into helping these people. That was your choice. Did you tell them at the outset you expected compensation? Did you explicitly state you needed help now? Did they say they needed your help?

    You shouldn't do things for ("help") others expecting reciprocation. That sets you up for disappointment. You help others because it makes you feel good, or because you can, because you think it's an essential part of your identity. If you help someone beyond their capability of paying you back- should they feel torn-up inside for the rest of their lives trying to pay you back? I don't think so.

    If this is a long-standing relationship, however, of course a "betrayal" of this sort will probably trend it towards dying (all relationships need to be feed and all that stuff). And that's the price you'll both pay- the decline of a relationship- for lack of support so to speak.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Tiny Army's Avatar
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    Well someone beat me to the punch! Rock, Colours!

    Seriously, though. How many people actively asked you for help prior to you helping them? I have NFJ friends who keep trying to solve my "relationship problems" when I not only don't have relationship problems they are none of their business. That's not "being helpful" that's meddling.

    If you offer unrequested help for some reason (I am going to assume personal gratification here) you lose the right to whinge about reciprocation.

    NFs seem to always believe that we can "read people." We know what they really need. But unless you are an Omega level mutant and can prove your telepathy to me I do not buy it. It is not POSSIBLE to know what someone else really feels no matter how much your intuition tells you it is. It is therefore unreasonable to tailor all your actions to those ideas.
    Anger is also a feeling.

  3. #43
    "Everything in its place" fill's Avatar
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    SilkRoad, your post speaks all kinds of truths to me. Thanks a ton for sharing!

    Quote Originally Posted by Colors
    No one bound you into helping these people. That was your choice. Did you tell them at the outset you expected compensation? Did you explicitly state you needed help now? Did they say they needed your help?
    Nobody has bound me to do anything. I can live how I want; I can be the most selfish person I can be, but for some reason our race (or maybe it's just me) has a defect called a complex personality, where we want to strive for greater things. Being selfless is the basis of being great; but nobody realizes this. We can either follow our minds and what's good for the whole of humanity or we can follow our shitty natural instincts to survive and think about solely ourselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colors
    You shouldn't do things for ("help") others expecting reciprocation. That sets you up for disappointment. You help others because it makes you feel good, or because you can, because you think it's an essential part of your identity.
    I don't expect reciprocation; and, again, I don't help people for me, I help people for people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colors
    "If you help someone beyond their capability of paying you back- should they feel torn-up inside for the rest of their lives trying to pay you back? I don't think so."
    Neither do I. Neither did this Buddhist monk. I don't want to be paid back, I want to be recognized; I want to stop being ignored because, like SilkRoad said, I'm not an "interesting" person, but I'm more than willing to go to extreme lengths just for a "thanks," but people are to damn selfish to even do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colors
    If this is a long-standing relationship, however, of course a "betrayal" of this sort will probably trend it towards dying (all relationships need to be feed and all that stuff). And that's the price you'll both pay- the decline of a relationship- for lack of support so to speak."
    A relationship with an unsaid, selfless support between two people are the ones I strive for, and in my experience, they tend to last for a very long time.

    Economica, I really can't give you a specific example of what has happened to me, but I can give you a hypothetical situation: Say you've been spending time with your good friend for a long time. Your friend hardly ever pays for anything when you go out, but their company is enough to keep you satisfied. You've never brought money up with your friend in your life. One day they're forced to pay for you because you left your wallet at home. Your friend does so, but tells you to pay them back in the exact amount that you owe them for that day.
    "Poor bastard. Wait 'till he sees the bats. "
    enneagram - 7/5/3

  4. #44
    "Everything in its place" fill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Army
    Seriously, though. How many people actively asked you for help prior to you helping them? I have NFJ friends who keep trying to solve my "relationship problems" when I not only don't have relationship problems they are none of their business. That's not "being helpful" that's meddling.
    Er, I'm sorry that's happened to you, but that's far from what I do. Hardly anyone asks me for help; I tend to ask people if they need help. If a friend of mine was having relationship problems, I wouldn't bluntly tell them how I see the situation, but it still depends on the moment. I'm assuming your friend simply brings up the matter of your relationship? I'm quite the opposite; I would never be so bold to simply point out somebody's flaws unless they're open to me doing so (which means they bring it up).

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Army
    "If you offer unrequested help for some reason (I am going to assume personal gratification here) you lose the right to whinge about reciprocation."
    Read my response to Colors where I address this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Army
    "NFs seem to always believe that we can "read people." We know what they really need. But unless you are an Omega level mutant and can prove your telepathy to me I do not buy it. It is not POSSIBLE to know what someone else really feels no matter how much your intuition tells you it is. It is therefore unreasonable to tailor all your actions to those ideas."
    I really want to disagree, but due to my high level of intuition, I have absolutely no facts to give against your argument, I can only simply say this: I've been able to read some people like a book. (Oh yeah, you could read micro-expressions. Have you ever seen Lie to Me?) I said this earlier:

    "Here's an example: my ENFP friend is extremely intuitive and perceiving. I've had classes with him, and if the teacher says something that I would probably contort into a sexual joke, I can literally look at him, and we'll both bust out laughing."
    "Poor bastard. Wait 'till he sees the bats. "
    enneagram - 7/5/3

  5. #45
    Senior Member Tiny Army's Avatar
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    That's adorable anecdotal evidence! No, this is not how it works. Being able to make guesses about your close friends' feelings does not equal ultimate empath who knows what is best for the world. And you cannot be certain that you read someone like a book. I will often agree when someone tells me what they think I'm feeling because it's easier than letting them know how I actually feel. It keeps me more protected. Yes we are intuitive types and that's awesome but all our intuition (especially yours my good Ni dom) happens in our heads not in the real world and therefore doesn't always actually apply.

    And if you "help people for people" this thread would never have happened. You already expressed unhappiness with people not helping you. The title of this thread itself indicates that. You need to explore what it is you actually have a problem with because there are contradictions all up ins. I can understand wanting a thank you for being helpful or caring but unless you were asked for help you don't have any right to ask for a thank you.
    Anger is also a feeling.

  6. #46
    "Everything in its place" fill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Army View Post
    That's adorable anecdotal evidence! No, this is not how it works. Being able to make guesses about your close friends' feelings does not equal ultimate empath who knows what is best for the world. And you cannot be certain that you read someone like a book. I will often agree when someone tells me what they think I'm feeling because it's easier than letting them know how I actually feel. It keeps me more protected. Yes we are intuitive types and that's awesome but all our intuition (especially yours my good Ni dom) happens in our heads not in the real world and therefore doesn't always actually apply.
    That's a great point! But I do see things the opposite way: I try to see what's best for the world through a set of morals and then apply to others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Army
    And if you "help people for people" this thread would never have happened. You already expressed unhappiness with people not helping you. The title of this thread itself indicates that. You need to explore what it is you actually have a problem with because there are contradictions all up ins. I can understand wanting a thank you for being helpful or caring but unless you were asked for help you don't have any right to ask for a thank you.
    Haha, that's very true. I think we addressed my problem a few pages back, which is being too indirect. As for the contradictions: I'm full of them. And for this I apologize. But I still feel as if you're missing my point. I'm not trying to be repaid for all of the things I've done, I simply want to be appreciated and recognized for them in the most unselfish way possible (I don't want a statue built of me-- but it would be nice). The difference is slight, but at the same time immense (more contradictions).
    "Poor bastard. Wait 'till he sees the bats. "
    enneagram - 7/5/3

  7. #47
    Senior Member Tiny Army's Avatar
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    The fact you think it would be nice theoretically to have a statue built for you indicates that deep down inside you want outward appreciation for your actions but it is in direct conflict with your beliefs and ideas about "selflessness." Humans are naturally selfish creatures. Until we breed, our survival is the most important thing to us. I think being perceived as unselfish is more important to you than actually being unselfish in some ways (which is natural so don't feel like I'm attacking you or you should feel bad). Why is being "unselfish" so important to you and what does it mean to you?
    Anger is also a feeling.

  8. #48
    movin melodies kiddykat's Avatar
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    Sometimes, when people don't offer it back or give back, it's not personal.. Sometimes, they're going through a rough patch? Or they don't feel confident enough to reciprocate in return? Whatever it is, it's beneficial to give when we give freely, because that's a more light-hearted way of dealing with things in life, in general..

    I think that when we offer to help someone, just let it be that. Who cares if we get anything back in return. Sometimes, people are in their own head-space for things. So long as you know what the intent is, then I think that would be good enough, correct?

  9. #49
    Senior Member Tiny Army's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fill View Post
    That's a great point! But I do see things the opposite way: I try to see what's best for the world through a set of morals and then apply to others.
    I also disagree with this statement considerably. Seeing the world "through a set of morals" that you then apply to everyone is unfair because it doesn't take into account that morals are a personal thing. There is no such thing as a universal value system. I think the closest we can get is "do not murder people" but even then the definition of murder is disputed. Seeing things through one person's set of morals is not what is best for anyone. It is what leads to fascist cultures as demonstrated in many fundamentalist Islamic republics and is even apparent in the Salem witch trials.

    My morals guide my own decisions. Facts are what guide the help I provide to others. It is not my place to impose my morals upon anyone but myself. I don't think it is anyone's.

    (Similarly you are welcome to lead your life as you please. I simply disagree with your statements.)
    Anger is also a feeling.

  10. #50
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    I'm always under the belief that if someone abuses my hand-outs, and mistakes my kindness for weakness, that I am the only one to blame. There comes a point where I have to man-up and realize that the only person's actions I can control are my own, and make decisions in my best interest.

    I'm not going to go so far as to say if someone manipulates you it's your fault.. but you must recognize that no one forces these things to you at gun point. You have to find your own particular balance between the "It doesn't matter what THEY do, it's what I do" to "They've drained me of everything" scale. If you get upset when people don't reciprocate the work you give to them, then you need to check yourself when you offer your services to others, and check yourself when you try to justify your overly kind nature by saying you'd 'feel bad' if you didn't help at all.

    I would also mention that people show affection in different ways. You may show your affection to friends and such by working for them.. but kind words may be all they require, or how they show affection. I could easily see those two languages being miscommunicated.
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