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  1. #41
    #005645 phthalocyanine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    True; but in balance, this tendency is not detrimental. That said, I have found this a challenge area for me. But swing this over to the other extreme, where one is not taking the feelings and needs of others into account, I think one is committing a deeper sin to the world. Sure, YOU are satisfied, but at what cost to those around you?
    i didn't say it was generally a detriment, or even that it applied to all 9's.
    if you go back and read the posts where the quotes came from you'll see that my post you were responding to was in a more personal, rather than general context.

    however, in response: if a person chooses the personally easiest route in a given situation, whether it is self-conscious or other-conscious in nature, it is ultimately self-serving.
    i suppose if the line of thinking is 'the end is more important than the means', then the other-conscious form of self-serving is probably better because other folks get something out of the deal too..but that doesn't negate the self-serving aspect of it.

    'balance' to me means striving for equal parts self-serving and other-serving, though. of course one extreme or the other ultimately ends in suffering..

    believe it or not, even as a 4 , i have struggled with self-serving for a long time (i am a 'social' variant 4), and i have come to that conclusion. it may not always feel right to choose to be self-serving, but i find that when i do so when it is called for i feel much healthier.




    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    True friends are rare indeed, and there are very, very few people indeed who I even allow to scan my inner self. If I sense you are trying to take a read on me, I'll block such probings. One might find that rather ironic for someone who desires deeper friendships, but I need to protect myself against those who seek to exploit rather than understand. Because sadly, those people exist.
    the reasoning makes sense, but it certainly doesn't make things any easier on those of us who aren't out to exploit anyone..or back away from them.

    say what you will about 4s, but one problem this type doesn't seem to have is confronting the dark side of things. our introspective self-absorption can become an asset (provided the 4 is healthy/mature ) when it comes to understanding the ways we people can work against ourselves, psychologically and otherwise.. i've gotten some earnest perspective from a 4

  2. #42
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    I pretty much agree with Peacebaby. (I should have mentioned that I'm 9w1.)

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I feel that way about type 4. The self-absorption in the description seems so selfish, so "all about me, poor little me". I'd rather not be the rain-cloud of the world (even though we all need a little rain sometimes).
    Yeah, I admit I've sometimes felt the same way. I mean, we all have our moments, but the 4 seems prone to embrace and even enjoy their sad emotions in a way I can't relate to.

    Quote Originally Posted by phthalocyanine View Post
    say what you will about 4s, but one problem this type doesn't seem to have is confronting the dark side of things. our introspective self-absorption can become an asset (provided the 4 is healthy/mature ) when it comes to understanding the ways we people can work against ourselves, psychologically and otherwise..
    Very true. And honestly I believe that the exceptional artistic talent and strength of many of the 4s comes from this ability to delve into the dark side of nature.

  3. #43
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phthalocyanine View Post
    i didn't say it was generally a detriment, or even that it applied to all 9's.
    if you go back and read the posts where the quotes came from you'll see that my post you were responding to was in a more personal, rather than general context.

    say what you will about 4s, but one problem this type doesn't seem to have is confronting the dark side of things. our introspective self-absorption can become an asset (provided the 4 is healthy/mature ) when it comes to understanding the ways we people can work against ourselves, psychologically and otherwise.. i've gotten some earnest perspective from a 4
    Balanced type 4's are great - admittedly, I did answer in a more provocative fashion than usual to generate a response. But I didn't take your assessment personally, so no worries there!

    Sometimes I reflect on why we are all constructed the way we are; I think we all have a particular mission to fulfill and thus what is "right action" for one does not necessarily work for another.

    So what I am supposed to focus on is just not necessarily what another is here to learn. And I make no judgement on that.

  4. #44
    #005645 phthalocyanine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Balanced type 4's are great - admittedly, I did answer in a more provocative fashion than usual to generate a response. But I didn't take your assessment personally, so no worries there!
    actually that was my only worry! i may be a strange critter, but at heart all i want to do is understand and get along with people..what a sap, huh? don't tell anybody.

    ha. you don't have to provoke an answer out of me, though, you know, can't you tell i'm prone to yammer on without any at all?

  5. #45
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phthalocyanine View Post
    actually that was my only worry! i may be a strange critter, but at heart all i want to do is understand and get along with people..what a sap, huh? don't tell anybody.

    ha. you don't have to provoke an answer out of me, though, you know, can't you tell i'm prone to yammer on without any at all?
    You are so adorable ... I just want to send you tons of !

    I like your "yammerin'"; you have a great deal of insight to share and I enjoyed your posts immensely.

  6. #46
    #005645 phthalocyanine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    I mean, we all have our moments, but the 4 seems prone to embrace and even enjoy their sad emotions in a way I can't relate to.
    it's true. i feel like life is half empty or something if i only experience the good stuff. misery illuminates joy to me, and the heights of either evoke the other for me..

    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    And honestly I believe that the exceptional artistic talent and strength of many of the 4s comes from this ability to delve into the dark side of nature.
    i almost feel like i was designed to make art. (not implying anything about intelligent design, lolz). i was pretty unimpressed in my youth with the traits nature had given me, even tried to deny em a bit, but now i feel much like PeaceBaby does - that we are all given our own set of tools and forge our own paths. it's pretty groovy.

  7. #47
    #005645 phthalocyanine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    You are so adorable ... I just want to send you tons of !

    I like your "yammerin'"; you have a great deal of insight to share and I enjoyed your posts immensely.
    aside from your avatar always making me hungry, i think you're pretty sweet yourself.

    (crap, don't let the NTs see this thread, it's only on page 5 and already it is becoming "another NF love fest"!)

  8. #48
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Why thank you! - but let the NT's in, we can beat them off no sweat!

    It's likely time to change my avvy to something sex-eh ... it gives me ice cream cravings far too frequently!

  9. #49
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phthalocyanine View Post
    it's true. i feel like life is half empty or something if i only experience the good stuff. misery illuminates joy to me, and the heights of either evoke the other for me..
    Very well said. I often feel like I have to give myself 'permission' to feel any emotion too intensely. Like, I'm not allowed to wallow in my own self pity unless I've already defined objectives for doing so. Or I have to hold myself back in relationships because of fear of the basic irrationality of my emotions. That control is a handy ability, but I've missed out on some great joys because of it.

  10. #50
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phthalocyanine View Post
    ^ ragashree, whats your MBTI type? INFP's integration point is 1.
    infp I suppose, though reading the *albeit very interesting* perspectives from the infps posting in this thread is enough to make me start doubting that - were I prone to such doubt to start with!

    Could you elaborate at all on what you mean by "integration point" though? I'm a bit unclear on the significance at present.



    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Yes we are, and as an INFP, very much so. That's the lovely oxymoron of it all; we know what we need and want, but we also want group harmony, therefore tend to repress our own desires in favor of the group. I do tend to squish my feelings down, but have learned that doing it for too long carries a hefty price tag.

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Whenever I've read the type Nine descriptions, it just grates on me and I feel a total repugnance towards it, a need to fiercely reject it.
    I feel that way about type 4. The self-absorption in the description seems so selfish, so "all about me, poor little me". I'd rather not be the rain-cloud of the world (even though we all need a little rain sometimes). LOL, song ref there!

    Udog's ratio of type 4 / type 9 sounds about right to me. I don't meet "me" very often ...
    This is where I find this discussion so fascinating: I can appreciate both points of view here with respect to the mutual criticisms without feeling at all comfortable about identifying with either type. Type 9 can seem too wishy-washy, vague, and uncertain; type 4 often appears excessively navel-gazing, wallowing in emotion, and self analytical to the point of driving me round the twist.

    I can appreciate the good points of each and the contributions they have to make but wouldn't really want to be either. One seems overly concerned with fitting in and suppressing their individuality, the other with asserting it and standing out from the crowd. I just feel like I've got more important purposes to put my energy to than either

    I'm wondering if the fact that I have an apparently untypical infp enneagram type (or at least the perspective that goes with it) could be part of the reason why, although I often appreciate the perspectives of the various infps posting on this site, I don't really feel my kinship with any of them to be very close. Usually I find that I have more in common with T and J types even though in function terms I supposedly have a strong F preference and am a definite P. Hmm...

    *Please don't mind me though - this is all very interesting!*


    Look into my avatar. Look deep into my avatar...

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