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  1. #21
    Senior Member amelie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I think I cant explain to you what my problem is, I am like in need of a theory to be coherent and to make sense, so I can accept it. If someone i.e. says: there is communism and their is capitalism. And then he says the combination of em both is the best social form, cause everyone on its own sucks, I can understand that.

    But in typology terms there is no name for a combined system of mbti and socionics, its only communism and capitalism. I now can say, I am gonna pick out the best of them and merge them to that degree they fit with my reality. Which is prolly the only healthy thing to do. But when it comes to things like for example the INFJ and F issue, you cant merge it.

    Everything after that would be real psychology and empathy and such things and my problem is just, I cant graps it cause I just cant. I dont have the ability to make that much compromise, I need to see a pattern behind things.
    The description that you posted fits me very well also. I'm not very familiar with Socionics at all, but from what I'm gathering from what you said above, perhaps the problem is that both systems try to categorize people into homogeneous groups when, in fact, there are dimensions involved. So the INFJ does actually resemble the INFP in many ways - and an INFJ who is very close to the middle on J/P would be very similar to a INFP who was also close to the middle on J/P - and those people might be very different than 2 people who were on the extremes of the J and P dimension. Perhaps one system uses a more "extreme" individual than the other? To put it another way - you can (often) divide gender into clear groups, at least by XX or XY chromosomes. But something like socioeconomic status (SES) often uses artificial categories, and some instruments will be more sensitive to levels of SES than others. I may be totally off base about what you mean, not sure.

  2. #22
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    No, very well stated. I have to learn that there is not only black and white but shades of grey, if I want to come to peace with the system on paper one day. In real life I know that already for, thanks god, a very long time
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  3. #23
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    And then I look at my infj and I see her going on rambling about alot of people but then on the other hand enjoying their company in being a good host. Its like she knows them both Fi + Fe and thats prolly true or not cause I lack the understanding of the function.

    You see, my thoughts have became erradic. Cause I will not understand the type systems any further, cause now I reached a dead end with logic. Meaning I know either settle on the things I am good at or start trieing to understand the type system again and again and again.

    I have decided on staieing with the things I can do, its just it bugs you, if you notice, you have reached a dead end cause your abilities are insufficient.
    the bolded statement describes Fe, does it not? i agree with you. i found socionics for me to be counterintuitive. others love it. i'm probably ignorant, but, hey, there's only so much you can do with typing systems anyway, right?

    i'd love to hear more about your wife and her Fe/Fi traits........my Fi is weakish. do you know much about Fi?

    screw it! have a beer!!
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  4. #24
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    the bolded statement describes Fe, does it not? i agree with you. i found socionics for me to be counterintuitive. others love it. i'm probably ignorant, but, hey, there's only so much you can do with typing systems anyway, right?

    i'd love to hear more about your wife and her Fe/Fi traits........my Fi is weakish. do you know much about Fi?

    screw it! have a beer!!
    oh! darn it. did i see somewhere that you don't drink anymore? i'm always saying the wrong thing to you.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  5. #25
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    oh! darn it. did i see somewhere that you don't drink anymore? i'm always saying the wrong thing to you.
    Nono, I am a drunkard as always and you never said a wrong thing to me thus far . My INFJ is just not my wife, YET ! I only know her for 3 years and I think I am still a bit to young for marriage, as in: I have never thought about it yet.

    Your take on the Fe thing is intresting and making sense aswell. I cant contribute much when it comes to F. I recently just had the guts to admit that I am prolly more Fi, cause I basically can share my feelings with others but would resort to means of like "die by the sword" if someone threatens them. Besides that I suck at being a good host or ever understanding superficial people, who dont write with their heart on their tongue.

    What you said about the topic, I find good aswell. The really intresting thing is that you all, meaning you INFs, generally agree on the basic outline but have your own ways of interpreting its meaning + generally accept that from each other. And I think that this must be the thing life should be about, to be happy in the end.

    Its just hard for a scientist at heart to accept the fact that there are different ways to interprete lifes mathematics and as I said before, I yet have to learn that one day.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  6. #26
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Hmmm if I remember things correctly...

    socionics define J/P using a person's dominant function, whereas MBTI defines it using the OUTER facing function.

    So for introverts. J/P for socionics and MBTI is reversed.

    INFJ (MBTI) = INFp (socionics) - Ni dominant (preceiving), Fe auxilary (outer judging)
    INFP (MBTI) = INFj (socionics) - Fi dominant (judging), Ne auxilary (outer perceiving)

    Of course the two system don't exactly overlap because of slight differences between how cognitive functions are defined.

    For the most part, I stay away from socionics too.

    Your take on the Fe thing is intresting and making sense aswell. I cant contribute much when it comes to F. I recently just had the guts to admit that I am prolly more Fi, cause I basically can share my feelings with others but would resort to means of like "die by the sword" if someone threatens them. Besides that I suck at being a good host or ever understanding superficial people, who dont write with their heart on their tongue.
    I'm not sure if defending values to the death is necessarily Fi as oppose to Fe. There's also differences between how people use Fe at the dominant, auxilary and tertiary position. Essentially no function acts in isolation. Your other functions will probably influence how you use Fe.
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  7. #27
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    What you said about the topic, I find good aswell. The really intresting thing is that you all, meaning you INFs, generally agree on the basic outline but have your own ways of interpreting its meaning + generally accept that from each other. And I think that this must be the thing life should be about, to be happy in the end.

    Its just hard for a scientist at heart to accept the fact that there are different ways to interprete lifes mathematics and as I said before, I yet have to learn that one day.
    i know this thread is about F, but i thought i'd quote one of the cooler things i've read lately about Ni, cuz it relates to what you just said, and is a fairly common source of communication problems between myself (ni dom) and people with right-brained dom and aux functions (Ne, Se, Ti, Fi). again, it is from the lenore thompson wiki: Truth-and-Language Exegesis

    From the Introverted Intuition standpoint, a true statement would be one that included everything: it would be applicable in all possible contexts. As a practical matter, no such statement is ever possible. The reality is always more than can be said, and what you say can never fully express your meaning. "The table is brown" might be "true" in some narrow sense pertaining to color, but what expectations attach to the word "brown"? Do you perhaps expect that brown means dull, or lower-class? Why did you say "brown" instead of "woodgrain"? Were you trying to separate yourself from the owner of the table, perhaps put yourself above that person? But couldn't someone from a different culture think that "brown" implies good and woodgrain implies ostentation and therefore cheapness? The full meaning of "the table is brown" could never be completely articulated or described. Each word is entangled with an unfathomable complexity of associations and assumptions. A really true statement would be one that could stand completely on its own, independent of any particular material or cultural context. And that's not possible. Since there is no one correct interpretation of a statement, each person has the right to interpret the words in his or her own way. It would be the worst possible violation of a person's autonomy to insist that they understand a word your way and not their own way. Ultimately, words are just words, with no meanings of their own; interpretations exist in another universe, one created by the interpreter.
    so, yes, as you said, i have my own ways of interpreting and expressing meaning, and i hope i extend the same courtesy to others. one of the MOST frustrating things for me in relating with others, is when they misconstrue what i say and try to attach their own meaning to it.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  8. #28
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    I'm not sure if defending values to the death is necessarily Fi as oppose to Fe. There's also differences between how people use Fe at the dominant, auxilary and tertiary position. Essentially no function acts in isolation. Your other functions will probably influence how you use Fe.
    I know, but I was talking about me, as I basically always do.

    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    i know this thread is about F, but i thought i'd quote one of the cooler things i've read lately about Ni, cuz it relates to what you just said, and is a fairly common source of communication problems between myself (ni dom) and people with right-brained dom and aux functions (Ne, Se, Ti, Fi). again, it is from the lenore thompson wiki: Truth-and-Language Exegesis



    so, yes, as you said, i have my own ways of interpreting and expressing meaning, and i hope i extend the same courtesy to others. one of the MOST frustrating things for me in relating with others, is when they misconstrue what i say and try to attach their own meaning to it.
    that is a really good thing you said and quoted their aphrodite. I just advanced on the theory and got the idea: may it be possible that due to my new found type, which uses Ni aswell, the root of my problem in defining the mbti and socionics in a logically graspable way that makes sense, could instead of being about logic result from this ?!:

    From the Introverted Intuition standpoint, a true statement would be one that included everything: it would be applicable in all possible contexts.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  9. #29
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I think you may have just solved my puzzle
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  10. #30
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    That's really intresting, I mean that quote:

    From the Introverted Intuition standpoint, a true statement would be one that included everything: it would be applicable in all possible contexts. As a practical matter, no such statement is ever possible. The reality is always more than can be said, and what you say can never fully express your meaning. "The table is brown" might be "true" in some narrow sense pertaining to color, but what expectations attach to the word "brown"? Do you perhaps expect that brown means dull, or lower-class? Why did you say "brown" instead of "woodgrain"? Were you trying to separate yourself from the owner of the table, perhaps put yourself above that person? But couldn't someone from a different culture think that "brown" implies good and woodgrain implies ostentation and therefore cheapness? The full meaning of "the table is brown" could never be completely articulated or described. Each word is entangled with an unfathomable complexity of associations and assumptions. A really true statement would be one that could stand completely on its own, independent of any particular material or cultural context. And that's not possible. Since there is no one correct interpretation of a statement, each person has the right to interpret the words in his or her own way. It would be the worst possible violation of a person's autonomy to insist that they understand a word your way and not their own way. Ultimately, words are just words, with no meanings of their own; interpretations exist in another universe, one created by the interpreter.
    says like what I did on this forum for 1/3 out of 4850 posts in which I was being serious. I have to think about that definitly, but I really thank you at this point this feels like to be the never found key I could have missed to my logic.

    I have a hard time to understand english and its basically a huge problem for me cause there are only ressources on english for me on typology. Therefore I can totally miss a thing like that and besides that I never really paied attention to the thing called intuition or sensordom, cause I never really grasped what the hell they were about.

    I have to think about that.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

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