[MBTI General] Key to winning a woman's heart?

[Jonathanthegreat]

The persistence you are describing is NOT selfless. You might think so but you wouldn't be doing it if you were getting nothing out of it or hoping to. Your ace in the hole here is using "love" as the excuse. That's fucking with people. That's manipulation.

It is selfless because I'm gaining nothing from it, only showing that I truly care about her despite anything. It's termed "agape" love, unconditional love. Look it up.

If this isn't manipulation, I don't know what is. Especially #5. Nice way to creepily fuck with someone's head...

Then you don't know what manipulation is.
Manipulation: To control someone/thing unfairly or unscrupulously.

Being a girl's friend, that you like is not a wrong thing to do. That's how the majority of successful relationships start, through friendship.

1) Frankly, this strikes me as delving deeper into the realms of personal abuse than the comment that led to it warranted. Whatever you think of INTJ123's analysis, there wasn't any name calling.

No name calling, you are right. I just don't like being told I am manipulative because no one on this forum has the just ability to decide that. Additionally I'm not being manipulative. I just hate that word and being called it. Instead of keeping the anger inside, which most people do, I decided to vent. Because it indeed angered me to the point of expressing myself.

I'm so glad my life's events draw in your concern and input

I shall use all this information to my benefit.

 

[GinKuusouka]

Personally, I think it's important to get to know the person first. Not necessarily for a long time, as friend zoning can occur, but show her that you developed an interest in her, specifically. People who have asked me out without knowing much about me really haven't attracted much of my attention, honestly. It's sort of like, "Why do you like me, you don't even know me!" But I'm probably alone in that. I want to know that I'm giving my trust to someone who both likes me and I know I like back. *shrug*

Just be genuine, be direct, and if it works then great. If not, don't persist. Persistance after rejection tends to irk me, because I've already answered the question once and don't feel like having to do so again. It's hard enough saying no to someone once, really!

I actually agree with you Bubbles. Especially about questioning why they like someone when they don't know them. When a guy is persistent... Well, it tends to make me unwilling to budge from where I stand.

Besides this, I have to wonder... How can someone make a plan for a woman that they don't even know? That you have to follow something precisely, step by step. Myself, I honestly thought that every being was an individual and should be treated as that. Not some number in a line. Funny that...

 

[SpottingTrains]

Chocolate.

 

[jenocyde]

It is selfless because I'm gaining nothing from it, only showing that I truly care about her despite anything. It's termed "agape" love, unconditional love. Look it up.

Then you don't know what manipulation is.
Manipulation: To control someone/thing unfairly or unscrupulously.

Being a girl's friend, that you like is not a wrong thing to do. That's how the majority of successful relationships start, through friendship.

Pursuing something means that you are trying to get something, which is indeed selfish, not selfless. Your goal is not to express unconditional love, your goal is to get the girl, right?

And pretending to be a girl's friend to entice her to break up with her bf, so you can "slowly move in on her" is indeed manipulation and is an abuse of trust. There is an ulterior motive, which makes it creepy.

selfless |ˈselfləs|
adjective
concerned more with the needs and wishes of others than with one's own; unselfish : an act of selfless devotion.

selfish |ˈselfi sh |
adjective
(of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure : I joined them for selfish reasons.

manipulate |məˈnipyəˌlāt|
verb [ trans. ]
1 handle or control (a tool, mechanism, etc.), typically in a skillful manner : he manipulated the dials of the set.
• alter, edit, or move (text or data) on a computer.
• examine or treat (a part of the body) by feeling or moving it with the hand : a system of healing based on manipulating the ligaments of the spine.
2 control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously : the masses were deceived and manipulated by a tiny group.
• alter (data) or present (statistics) so as to mislead.


and for good measure:

creepy |ˈkrēpē|
adjective ( creepier , creepiest ) informal
causing an unpleasant feeling of fear or unease : the creepy feelings one often gets in a strange house.

 

[Fidelia]

Jonathan the Great

Obviously the question you brought up has been one that is worthy of discussion and many people have had input to add that is worth considering and interacting with.

It's easier online to express what you think about things and have the kinds of discussion you wouldn't normally have immediately after meeting a new person in real life. Obviously, none of us would go around in real life asking for a group of complete strangers' opinons on various and sundry topics, although it is perfectly acceptable and welcomed here. However, the very fact that we don't know you in real life means that if you don't wish to be misunderstood, you have to be very careful in how you say something. Whoever is reading what you write has nothing else to go on but your words.

I can understand how being told you are manipulative could bother you. On the other hand, I'm guessing you wouldn't be as likely in real life to unload the f word on someone you don't know well who had offended you. Perhaps it might ultimately serve you better to find someone offline to vent to first to take the edge of your anger or else wait a little while before responding. You have asked an honest question and people are responding to it. When you respond with anger to people who don't know you, they are likely to either start ignoring you or bait you for fun. Neither are pleasant. As ENFJs are already highly underrepresented, I'd like to see you stick around...

 

[Jonathanthegreat]

Your goal is not to express unconditional love, your goal is to get the girl, right?

It's both.

And pretending to be a girl's friend to entice her to break up with her bf, so you can "slowly move in on her" is indeed manipulation. There is an ulterior motive, which makes it creepy.

I never said pretend. Re-read the post darling. Neither did I say entice her to break up with the bf.

 

[jenocyde]

I never said pretend. Re-read the post darling. Neither did I say entice her to break up with the bf.

You wrote that in response to a poster who said he met a girl that already had a boyfriend. You told him to follow these rules exactly, and to trust you on it, if he wanted to be with her.

And I said pretend because you are going into a friendship with an ulterior motive to slowly move in on someone, which is what I view as deceitful and manipulative, darling.

I don't give a shit what you do, but if you give off suggestions like that, then expect feedback.

 

[ceecee]

It is selfless because I'm gaining nothing from it, only showing that I truly care about her despite anything. It's termed "agape" love, unconditional love.

Pursuing something means that you are trying to get something, which is indeed selfish, not selfless. Your goal is not to express unconditional love, your goal is to get the girl, right?

It's both.

Did you want to try again to justify it?

 

[Fidelia]

You're not going to win this one J the G, and using terms of endearment unendearingly will not bother NTs in the least. It will only cause them to make you look overemotional and illogical. Keep going though if you are enjoying yourself.

 

[Fluffywolf]

I felt the urge to join in but he's handled good enough as it is.

 

[SpottingTrains]

asses keys to ENFJ escape shuttle to Jonathan:

 

[Jonathanthegreat]

You wrote that in response to a poster who said he met a girl that already had a boyfriend. You told him to follow these rules exactly, and to trust you on it, if he wanted to be with her.

And I said pretend because you are going into a friendship with an ulterior motive to slowly move in on someone, which is what I view as deceitful and manipulative, darling.

I don't give a shit what you do, but if you give off suggestions like that, then expect feedback.

careful, your fangs are showing

 

[Fluffywolf]

Hah, if you think that is showing fangs, I sure hope you don't ever encounter an actual agry woman.

 

[Jonathanthegreat]

asses keys to ENFJ escape shuttle to Jonathan:

????

I don't know what the means but if its to "escape" from the NT's, its ok.

People get what and where they want through persistence. Period.
I'm sure any person on this forum with a six digit annual income would agree.
Also I've read plenty of stories, including on this forum, of a man pursuing a woman, being initially turned down, but kept gently pursuing and were successful.

 

[Fluffywolf]

????

I don't know what the means but if its to "escape" from the NT's, its ok.

People get what and where they want through persistence. Period.
I'm sure any person on this forum with a six digit annual income would agree.
Also I've read plenty of stories, including on this forum, of a man pursuing a woman, being initially turned down, but kept gently pursuing and were successful.

But where does ethics come in, and to what degree?

Pursuing a woman is fine, but not by using any less than honest means to aquire that which you want.

And seriously, comparing the pursuitment of love with the coorporate system? That's digging your own grave man. I'll enjoy watching this unfold.

 

[jenocyde]

careful, your fangs are showing

Fangs? No, not even close. Just stated the facts. But since you didn't respond to any actual points I made, I'll take that as a sign that you want to let this go.

Hah, if you think that is showing fangs, I sure hope you don't ever encounter an actual agry woman.

It's beyond me how anyone could think those were fangs. And didn't I vote you the one most likely to taste human blood in that thread? Hahaha...

 

[Fluffywolf]

It takes an expert to know.

 

[Jonathanthegreat]

Fangs? No, not even close. Just stated the facts. But since you didn't respond to any actual points I made, I'll take that as a sign that you want to let this go.



It's beyond me how anyone could think those were fangs. And didn't I vote you the one most likely to taste human blood in that thread? Hahaha...

No it's because obviously someone has done something similar to what I posted on that list to you and it has hurt you and you took it to a personal level.

Plus I've always learned never to argue with an idiot because they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience, not saying you're an idiot just same principle.

 

[jenocyde]

Also I've read plenty of stories, including on this forum, of a man pursuing a woman, being initially turned down, but kept gently pursuing and were successful.

...or ended up with a restraining order.

It takes an expert to know.

Good point. *wipes blood off chin*

 

[ragashree]

Being a girl's friend, that you like is not a wrong thing to do. That's how the majority of successful relationships start, through friendship.

5.) Be her FRIEND. Because when this guy she is with leaves, then you are her friend. The best attribute of being a friend to a girl that you like is you can get a LOT of face time with her and that way you can slowly move in on her.

Do you honestly not think there's a difference between being her friend for the sake of friendship, and being her friend for the sake of an ulterior motive, which you are advocating intentionally concealing from her?

No name calling, you are right. I just don't like being told I am manipulative because no one on this forum has the just ability to decide that.
Additionally I'm not being manipulative. I just hate that word and being called it. Instead of keeping the anger inside, which most people do, I decided to vent. Because it indeed angered me to the point of expressing myself.

Is this to say that you feel name calling is not ok and it was a mistake, or that it IS ok because what was said upset you? You seem to be implying that "venting" is a virtue because you're feeling angry and it's something most people keep to themselves. I would suggest that a certain degree of self-control is more of a virtue than allowing yourself to lash out in that manner; and that the reason most people keep that kind of talk to themselves when something's said that upsets them is that they want to keep the respect of the other participants in the conversation, and some self-respect for having kept the conversation at something approaching a reasonable adult level despite the way they're feeling.

Usually hatred and anger have fear at their root. This does make me wonder what fear was triggered by seeing that one word which made you react as you did.