[MBTI General] How do NF's talk to S's in general?

[garbage]

This doesn't address the specific problem outlined in the OP, but it does address the topic question.

I've run into situations where I've made a couple of scattered points and drawn a conclusion, which is "right" in my own mind, but I didn't connect the dots so the entire argument is lost.

So, I think first and talk slowly, which isn't a "normal mode of operation" for me. I don't do this because I think they're stupid, but because it's much easier for me to communicate in a linear, sequential fashion that way. Otherwise, I'll "skip steps" and not communicate the entirety of what I want to get across.

This isn't just a "talk to sensors" mode; even N's can connect the dots differently than I do, and so it's helpful to allow them to see how I have connected them.

This mode of communication also helps me, because I'll know whether or not my logic is sound--it's a way of checking my intuition's work, as it were.

 

[proteanmix]

I'd say the first step is to lose the condescending attitude.

 

[Unique]

I'd say the first step is to lose the condescending attitude.

hahaha this

and greed no offense but that sounds completely idiotic

 

[garbage]

and greed no offense but that sounds completely idiotic

Tear it apart and tell me where it's idiotic. If there's a better way to communicate, I'd like to find it.

 

[Unique]

Tear it apart and tell me where it's idiotic. If there's a better way to communicate, I'd like to find it.

Thing with the extraverted NFs (and especially the Js) is they usually aren't interested in a more SP way of communicating

Despite me making the best efforts to watch what I say and communicate to NFs on their level

So let me start by saying I appreciate the fact that you actually want to hear this

It's not so much "slow" as you put it but "limiting", N's tend to fluff a lot and say a lot of unnecessary things but more importantly they seem to have selective hearing and take the "blunt" thing the SP said (which was meant EXACTLY as it said) to mean something completely wrong

We aren't big on double meanings and don't usually insinuate things, we get to the point

Then when the moment is right and there is a lull on the action use that intuitive mind !

This might have a bit of an ESTP spin on it and I have NO idea how to communicate with the SJs so your own with that one but there you are

 

[Stanton Moore]

It's a failing to think of this as an issue of intelligence. What is intelligence? It's not defined by our thoughts as N's...
In the Wall-E example, there may be different things going on for S's and N's...Both saw the same film, but took different things from it.
A person whose senses are highly attuned may come out of with a richer sensory experience than an N can reach. How is that any less valuable than my experience as an N? It's possible that they are able to enjoy the thing for what it really is, rather than trying to understand it's deeper meaning, or trying to find meaning where there really isn't any.
I envy the ability of my GF (ISFJ) to really enjoy things, like her garden and hanging out with friends. I don't find those satisfying on some levels, but seeing her perspective has helped me to 'come to my senses'!

 

[garbage]

Thing with the extraverted NFs (and especially the Js) is they usually aren't interested in a more SP way of communicating

Despite me making the best efforts to watch what I say and communicate to NFs on their level

So let me start by saying I appreciate the fact that you actually want to hear this

In any case, there's definitely a S/N divide that often exists; crossing it depends on both individuals who are having the conversation wishing to do so. There are sensors who aren't interested in reaching common ground with intuitives and vice versa.

It's not so much "slow" as you put it but "limiting", N's tend to fluff a lot and say a lot of unnecessary things

Well, right; I certainly agree with you. However, there's a big difference between "not getting straight to the point" with unnecessary tangents and conversation branches (which I agree tends to be a N trait) and filling in the details that may be necessary to get to the point, which is what I attempt to do.

Taking the conversation a bit slowly and thinking about what I say first is also a way for me to avoid the unnecessary tangents that my brain sometimes makes.

But I, personally, more often make the mistake of leaving out information more often than I state irrelevant information, such as not unifying pronouns and "skipping steps" as I mentioned.

Surely, one can't just outright say, "Therefore, [my conclusion]" without the premises and the argument and expect everyone to follow?

but more importantly they seem to have selective hearing and take the "blunt" thing the SP said (which was meant EXACTLY as it said) to mean something completely wrong

We aren't big on double meanings and don't usually insinuate things, we get to the point

Then when the moment is right and there is a lull on the action use that intuitive mind !

I realize communication is a two-way street; however, my discussion had nothing to do with how I perceive things that sensors say to me; it was all about how I talk to them.

But I'll address it anyway.

NFs might be prone to take things personally, sure. One is bound to filter things in a personal manner when their "life mission" is to search for personal meaning and identity. Thus, many will read some personal criticism into one attacking their ideas. Any NF would be wise to recognize this tendency, if they do indeed have it, and account for it.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Well, if people like those are Sensors... I talk to them as little as possible, because they bore and annoy me. They're like two-year olds.

I can only hope that you are not serious. Some of the FINEST people I know are Sensors.

It's not that sensors dont ever want to talk about anything "deep." They just go about it a completely different way than N's. How do we as strong intuituve types bridge that gap between N's and strong S's?

Well, you're "intuitive" right? You need to meet them in their space, and not expect them to enter yours. Talk about the real world, and open them to alternative possibilities when the timing is right.

This gets easier with practice. Just focus on the other person instead of wanting to be all "deep and profound".

I act the same with SJs as I do with any other type. I just know to expect the occasional eye roll and look of disbelief and respond accordingly with even more of what provoked the reaction. Eventually their sense of humor kicks in and all is well until the next disagreement .

Agreed - well said!

duhhhhhh.....

Jeffster, I love you ... And your down-to-earth posts dazzle me with their forthright beauty.

I'd say the first step is to lose the condescending attitude.

Yes! YES!

...N's tend to fluff a lot and say a lot of unnecessary things but more importantly they seem to have selective hearing and take the "blunt" thing the SP said (which was meant EXACTLY as it said) to mean something completely wrong.

Oh ya, this can be so true! I have learned to more concise instead of meandering, and ask more questions if I think I have misinterpreted bluntness, instead of going away pouting! LOL!

 

[King sns]

I have tested 88% Intuitive and naturally I have a serious communication problem with S's in general.

They always seem to give me a look of almost disgust that I care so much about seemingly light issues.

A perfect example would be talking about movies, something I really enjoy talking about. The movie would be WALL-E.

I really saw what the makers of WALL-E were trying to get at. WALL-E and EVE broke out of their "programming" when it seemed to be obsolete. The AUTO bot was just the opposite, he followed "orders" to a fault and nearly killed all the people he was created to protect on the Axiom.

I was explaining this to an S and her reply was: "WALL-E makes funny noises." It was a bit tough and cheeck but that's how the conversation ended. She was basically saying that she couldn't care less about the moral values of the story, and I would assume she is confused why I would care about them.

So, how does a strong NF like myself comminucate with S's? So far it's been an epic fail at every turn.

75% of the world is sensors. Is this how you view all of them? Ever think that if you "can't communicate" with 75% of people then you may need to change the way that you communicate, and that you might be the one with the problem?

The person that you were talking to about that movie sounds like an idiot. (well, I don't know them personally, but based on that story alone...)

I don't know.

If you do truly have a problem communicating with sensors, I would go with what everyone has been saying. Try to talk some sensor things if you want to be around them. Basically real world solid stuff that is going on around you. That way there will be some basic relatable stuff for them. If then you talk about N stuff and they are unwilling to listen, than maybe you shouldn't be their friend to begin with. Maybe they are just rude or dumb or something.

 

[Unique]

In any case, there's definitely a S/N divide that often exists; crossing it depends on both individuals who are having the conversation wishing to do so. There are sensors who aren't interested in reaching common ground with intuitives and vice versa.



Well, right; I certainly agree with you. However, there's a big difference between "not getting straight to the point" with unnecessary tangents and conversation branches (which I agree tends to be a N trait) and filling in the details that may be necessary to get to the point, which is what I attempt to do.

Taking the conversation a bit slowly and thinking about what I say first is also a way for me to avoid the unnecessary tangents that my brain sometimes makes.

But I, personally, more often make the mistake of leaving out information more often than I state irrelevant information, such as not unifying pronouns and "skipping steps" as I mentioned.

Surely, one can't just outright say, "Therefore, [my conclusion]" without the premises and the argument and expect everyone to follow?



I realize communication is a two-way street; however, my discussion had nothing to do with how I perceive things that sensors say to me; it was all about how I talk to them.

But I'll address it anyway.

NFs might be prone to take things personally, sure. One is bound to filter things in a personal manner when their "life mission" is to search for personal meaning and identity. Thus, many will read some personal criticism into one attacking their ideas. Any NF would be wise to recognize this tendency, if they do indeed have it, and account for it.

You think the conversational branches are needed because they are your process, not because they actually are

If they were needed why would ESTP be considered the ultimate conversationalist? Edgar even goes so far to say that other types try to pretend to be ESTP just to get a social advantage

Thing is with you guys is you pretty much are better off including everything you want to say rather than finding key points

Even though those key points are what we are looking for, you are always going to find "getting to the point" harder and all the other information will always be included

For the record, a majority of my friends are NFs

I think this whole "communication barrier" with the N/S thing is overrated

I'd like to know why I never hear S's complaining about it

Though thats the whole N thing isn't it? "I'm so misunderstood"

If it helps I'm sorry you were born in a human body with hands and feet and being able to sense when really you wanted to be a brain in a jar dreaming

Oh ya, this can be so true! I have learned to more concise instead of meandering, and ask more questions if I think I have misinterpreted bluntness, instead of going away pouting! LOL!

Cheers big ears

INFPs are so cute when they do it though, they actually go and pout! lol an ENF would attempt to emotionally kick our ass

Then when they realize we actually were being blunt they either pull out an apology or hold to their guns anyway (depending on how healthy they are )

 

[prplchknz]

I talk to eveyone the same way, and if they don't understand me then that's their problem. and for the record most of the world can get the gist of what I'm saying.

 

[seeker22]

I have to give my former ISFJ credit - she was kind of like "my rock" as far as handling the business of every day living and "the real world." She had her practical every day routines, cooked, cleaned, did the laundry. She took "good care of me" in that sense. But I wanted/needed more than "a caretaker." I want/need intellectual stimulation, emotional intimacy and closeness, a mindmate, a playmate... She didn't fit that bill. =(

For me, there was always "something missing." Being an "N" (and a HIGH "N" at that) we just couldn't seem to bridge that N/S gap. She wanted to talk about factual, concrete, practical things. I wanted to theorize, postulate, wonder, explore, imagine, envision... She just couldn't go there. She didn't "get it." She didn't have that natural curiosity, drive, or desire to go a bit deeper than surface stuff. This resulted in me quite frequently (daily) becoming bored, resentful, annoyed, and starved for "connection." She did not understand what was "missing" for me. She was content.

My SJ was a "dud" when it came to verbal banter. Verbal repartee is paramount to me and so engaging. I often felt like I was talking to a brick wall with my SJ who was "there," but "not there." If good conversation is like a tennis match, where you each "hit one back" to the other, my tennis balls were just kind of rolling to the back wall with my SJ. Nothing ever came "back."

I knew she loved me and I thought to myself - I have a hot, decent, good person who cooks, cleans, does my laundry, etc. - yet I don't feel content. What is wrong with ME??! I started to think I was insatiable or something... Then I realized - I didn't feel CONNECTED or ENGAGED. I felt like we were PARALLEL to one another not INTERTWINED.

She always said she felt like she bored me or that she was too boring for me... And we tried EVERYTHING as far as learning to communicate better - including books, therapy, etc. It NEVER changed. =( I just don't think you can change one another's natural temperaments and relational styles. I tried soooooo hard to change my own to adjust to hers. It was like self suicide. =(

 

[Unique]

I have to give my former ISFJ credit - she was kind of like "my rock" as far as handling the business of every day living and "the real world." She had her practical every day routines, cooked, cleaned, did the laundry. She took "good care of me" in that sense. But I wanted/needed more than "a caretaker." I want/need intellectual stimulation, emotional intimacy and closeness, a mindmate, a playmate... She didn't fit that bill. =(

For me, there was always "something missing." Being an "N" (and a HIGH "N" at that) we just couldn't seem to bridge that N/S gap. She wanted to talk about factual, concrete, practical things. I wanted to theorize, postulate, wonder, explore, imagine, envision... She just couldn't go there. She didn't "get it." She didn't have that natural curiosity, drive, or desire to go a bit deeper than surface stuff. This resulted in me quite frequently (daily) becoming bored, resentful, annoyed, and starved for "connection." She did not understand what was "missing" for me. She was content.

My SJ was a "dud" when it came to verbal banter. Verbal repartee is paramount to me and so engaging. I often felt like I was talking to a brick wall with my SJ who was "there," but "not there." If good conversation is like a tennis match, where you each "hit one back" to the other, my tennis balls were just kind of rolling to the back wall with my SJ. Nothing ever came "back."

I knew she loved me and I thought to myself - I have a hot, decent, good person who cooks, cleans, does my laundry, etc. - yet I don't feel content. What is wrong with ME??! I started to think I was insatiable or something... Then I realized - I didn't feel CONNECTED or ENGAGED. I felt like we were PARALLEL to one another not INTERTWINED.

She always said she felt like she bored me or that she was too boring for me... And we tried EVERYTHING as far as learning to communicate better - including books, therapy, etc. It NEVER changed. =( I just don't think you can change one another's natural temperaments and relational styles. I tried soooooo hard to change my own to adjust to hers. It was like self suicide. =(

ANOTHER person who refers to "all Ss" and talks about an SJ.... YUCK old tried and true concepts? eh?

Generalizing here of course but
S = traditional
N = unconventional
J = traditional
P = UNCONVENTIONAL

You will find it severely much easier to talk about those "unusual" concepts with an SP, maybe not the same as another NP but do you really want a clone of yourself?

If anything it will be more interesting, imagine them connecting to your concept then actually expanding on its practicality

Generalizing here but an SP WOULD be more likely to do that, an SJ is not interested in a "new" way of doing things

I simply detest that you box "all S's" and forget about the very unique very unconventional SP temperament

 

[OrangeAppled]

ANOTHER person who refers to "all Ss" and talks about an SJ.... YUCK old tried and true concepts? eh?

Generalizing here of course but
S = traditional
N = unconventional
J = traditional
P = UNCONVENTIONAL

You will find it severely much easier to talk about those "unusual" concepts with an SP, maybe not the same as another NP but do you really want a clone of yourself?

If anything it will be more interesting, imagine them connecting to your concept then actually expanding on its practicality

Generalizing here but an SP WOULD be more likely to do that, an SJ is not interested in a "new" way of doing things

I simply detest that you box "all S's" and forget about the very unique very unconventional SP temperament

In fairness to SJs also, there are some who work hard to bridge the gap. My ISFJ mother makes a tremendous effort to communicate with me because it's important to her to make a deeper connection. Both of her husbands have been intuitives and I think she greatly admires intuitives, even as we frustrate and confuse her at times.
Since xSFJs can be so nurturing, I think they can have the motivation to go that extra mile. xSTJs also have a frightening determination, so quite possible for them also

 

[Quinlan]

I simply detest that you box "all S's" and forget about the very unique very unconventional SP temperament

+1

Seems funny that we tend to get lumped together with something (convention/tradition) that goes counter to what the temperament is all about.

 

[Jeremy]

I'm just myself around everyone. I don't really take it into account whether someone is an N or an S.. It's not like we speak different languages. Most people just see me as sort of quirky sometimes, and that's part of how I like to be seen, so it works for me

 

[Jeremy]

+1

Seems funny that we tend to get lumped together with something (convention/tradition) that goes counter to what the temperament is all about.

It's something I don't get. NTs are often considered very different from NFs, even if both of them are quite similar in terms of information processing. SPs on the other hand are seen as only a few organized folders and a clean desk away from being SJs.

 

[Wiley45]

I'm just myself around everyone. I don't really take it into account whether someone is an N or an S.. It's not like we speak different languages.

I don't think the point is to be fake, but maybe to approach a conversation with someone else in a way that both parties can enjoy it and relate. Talking about symbolism or hidden meanings in a cartoon isn't likely to appeal to an S, so it might not be the best angle to start off a conversation.

Or, for another example, I try to be a little better about summing up my feelings when talking to my INTJ friend. She's not really the one to go to if I want to rant and blab about my innermost emotional life. I'm still being genuine, but trying to express myself in a way that won't make her want to stop talking to me. Then, we can have a good conversation and I can hear her insights and learn from what she has to say.

 

[Jeffster]

I
Jeffster, I love you ... And your down-to-earth posts dazzle me with their forthright beauty.

Love you too, babe! Thanks.

 

[Randomnity]

I'm wondering how you know someone is an S if you can't communicate with them? It seems like some communication would be necessary to understand them enough to know their type with confidence. Unless, you know, you're typing them as S based on the fact that you can't communicate