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  1. #81
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    An ESFJ came up to me and did the weirdest thing this week.

    She said to me, "Do you know what I do when I get up in the morning?" and I said, "No but you're going to tell me." laugh laugh laugh. Then she continued, "Every morning I get and ask myself how can I make my self better today." And I was like "Seriously?" More conversation. Then she says, "But I've been wondering over the last few months, why am I doing this? What is my rush? Why do I feel like I have to accomplish so much by the time I'm 30? Who am I racing against? I overheard a woman on the subway talking about getting her college degree at 40. Why I am running so hard and fast?"

    She initiated what I would consider an "abstract" conversation and she's only 24! Her Ne isn't due to cross the horizon for at least another 20-25 years! And the conversation was more than 20 minutes! But sadly after that we starting talking about Beyonce.

    From what I'm interpreting people saying in this thread is they expect this type of conversation non-stop all the time. And the type of abstract conversations I think NFs want is to have someone pour out their heart and soul. I'd like to ask those who feel like they're not getting enough of this type of conversation from people what are you doing to cultivate an atmosphere where people feel comfortable talking to you like this? Certainly, you understand that some people (I'd say most people) wouldn't casually bust out with this? So many of these complaints are based on the fact that you may be closed off yourself and when you do decide to foray into conversations like this with others you have no foundation or platform set for them to happen. And then you get upset when they don't happen when you've done nothing to make them happen.

    I have conversations like this with various Essess nearly every other day. Honestly, I wouldn't even talk to half of the people who've commented on this thread about anything abstract and deep because I seriously detect a superior attitude and perhaps others detect this as well. I have found little reason to significantly change my casual conversational topics because someone won't be interested in it. I find an angle to make the conversation as interesting and engaging for most people involved. Use your precious N to figure out how.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  2. #82
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    An ESFJ came up to me and did the weirdest thing this week.

    She said to me, "Do you know what I do when I get up in the morning?" and I said, "No but you're going to tell me." laugh laugh laugh. Then she continued, "Every morning I get and ask myself how can I make my self better today." And I was like "Seriously?" More conversation. Then she says, "But I've been wondering over the last few months, why am I doing this? What is my rush? Why do I feel like I have to accomplish so much by the time I'm 30? Who am I racing against? I overheard a woman on the subway talking about getting her college degree at 40. Why I am running so hard and fast?"

    She initiated what I would consider an "abstract" conversation and she's only 24! Her Ne isn't due to cross the horizon for at least another 20-25 years! And the conversation was more than 20 minutes! But sadly after that we starting talking about Beyonce.

    From what I'm interpreting people saying in this thread is they expect this type of conversation non-stop all the time. And the type of abstract conversations I think NFs want is to have someone pour out their heart and soul. I'd like to ask those who feel like they're not getting enough of this type of conversation from people what are you doing to cultivate an atmosphere where people feel comfortable talking to you like this? Certainly, you understand that some people (I'd say most people) wouldn't casually bust out with this? So many of these complaints are based on the fact that you may be closed off yourself and when you do decide to foray into conversations like this with others you have no foundation or platform set for them to happen. And then you get upset when they don't happen when you've done nothing to make them happen.

    I have conversations like this with various Essess nearly every other day. Honestly, I wouldn't even talk to half of the people who've commented on this thread about anything abstract and deep because I seriously detect a superior attitude and perhaps others detect this as well. I have found little reason to significantly change my casual conversational topics because someone won't be interested in it. I find an angle to make the conversation as interesting and engaging for most people involved. Use your precious N to figure out how.
    +1

  3. #83
    Senior Member seeker22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    From what I'm interpreting people saying in this thread is they expect this type of conversation non-stop all the time.
    Nope. Not "non-stop all the time." That would be exhausting.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Honestly, I wouldn't even talk to half of the people who've commented on this thread about anything abstract and deep because I seriously detect a superior attitude and perhaps others detect this as well. I have found little reason to significantly change my casual conversational topics because someone won't be interested in it. I find an angle to make the conversation as interesting and engaging for most people involved. Use your precious N to figure out how.
    I don't think identification of communication differences qualifies for wielding superior attitudes. All due respect.

    Also, statistically, there are more Sensors in the general population than Intuitives. Hence, on a regular basis (daily) I craft my conversations to "fit in" with the S types - concrete, practical, factual, informational... Yes I DO make the effort. I don't think "making the effort" should depend solely on the "N," but rather on both parties.

  4. #84
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    I talk to S people like I would any other human being. You adjust to people not based on type but based on how they are... if someone isn't interested in a random theory don't talk about that theory. If someone doesn't want to small talk don't small talk.

    Something to note is that these people that are seemingly disinterested in theory probably actually like theory... but only toward things that matter to them. Made up stuff doesn't really work out. Like, say if your sensor friend really likes cars, they would probably appreciate a theory that sounds realistic in the field of cars.

    It's all about adjusting to the person.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  5. #85
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seeker22 View Post
    Also, statistically, there are more Sensors in the general population than Intuitives. Hence, on a regular basis (daily) I craft my conversations to "fit in" with the S types - concrete, practical, factual, informational... Yes I DO make the effort. I don't think "making the effort" should depend solely on the "N," but rather on both parties.
    Problem is I don't think most Ns recognize when the effort is made because they've already written the sensor in question off.

    And one think I consistently see people failing to do in this situation is look at how you interact with the person and take advantage of opportunities for "abstractness" when they arise. Sensing dominates human living. Like unique says, if you want to be a brain in a jar that's your business. And once again I find that most intuitives on this forum have a very strict and rigid sense of what is considered abstract conversation. Philosophy and religion being to two major ones. Look at how many threads about Is There a God that pop up every gotdamn week. It's the same thing over and over again. There are infinitely abstract conversations out there to be had even if it's about bubble wrap.

    And you glossed over the part I said about cultivating an atmosphere and platform for these conversations to take place. If deign to step off your N pedestal and sit and have lunch or go to happy hour or whatever else opportunity to that arises to get to know a person in depth you may be surprised what they say on their own without any prompting from you. I've had INTJs (yes more than one!) break down and tell me their fears, ISTPs (more than one!) say how deeply they felt something in a movie, ESFJs (more than one!) wander into some pretty deep philosophical conversations and one particular instance was after leaving a club between complaining about how much our feet hurt.

    Where are you when these moments occur? Too busy thinking 'oh, waiting for a conversation like this with an sensor is like waiting for grass to grow.' I also realize that I probably have a higher than average opportunity for these things to happen in my presence simply because of who I am and how I interact with people. I ask people probing questions and get them to keep talking. I'm also looking for cues of when they're puttering out on a particular type of conversation. I do a lot of ground work to get people to talk to me in what I hope is a mutually satisfying manner.

    On some level, if you're the one with the knowledge and understanding then it kind of is your responsibility to bridge gaps since you may be the only one who recognizes one is there. Yes it's maddening and frustrating but what are your alternatives? Get angry and sulk? To whom much is given, much is expected.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  6. #86
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    From what I'm interpreting people saying in this thread is they expect this type of conversation non-stop all the time. And the type of abstract conversations I think NFs want is to have someone pour out their heart and soul. I'd like to ask those who feel like they're not getting enough of this type of conversation from people what are you doing to cultivate an atmosphere where people feel comfortable talking to you like this? Certainly, you understand that some people (I'd say most people) wouldn't casually bust out with this? So many of these complaints are based on the fact that you may be closed off yourself and when you do decide to foray into conversations like this with others you have no foundation or platform set for them to happen. And then you get upset when they don't happen when you've done nothing to make them happen.

    I have conversations like this with various Essess nearly every other day. Honestly, I wouldn't even talk to half of the people who've commented on this thread about anything abstract and deep because I seriously detect a superior attitude and perhaps others detect this as well. I have found little reason to significantly change my casual conversational topics because someone won't be interested in it. I find an angle to make the conversation as interesting and engaging for most people involved. Use your precious N to figure out how.
    I don't want people pouring out thier emotion to me all the time....I'd drown!
    I do however spend quite a substantial amount of time alone, and when I'm with people, I kinda want my conversations to mean something and get out all my thoughts....people tend to look at you funny when you admit you've been pondering the down fall of capitalism, off the bat. I spend a lot of time listening to people talk about what they brought for lunch, whether they are going to go to that concert next week?what colour doona they should get?
    I don't always get say what's on my mind. I could easily say that 80% of the time we don't even touch upon the things on my mind. In fact, some times I don't get a word in edge wise. How can I set up the platform for a deeper conversation under those circumstances? Goodness knows, I've tried, and get cut off dead.

    Don't get me wrong, the world would be a poorer place without sensors...but talking about what brand of moisteriser you use, while actually useful (I'll admitt that),when I'm trying to ask you about something of emotional (and/or theoritcal) importance tells you are not picking up my signals. (I don't mean you personally). This happened so much with my mother, I could only conclude
    she wasn't interested. Her eyes would litterally glaze over when I finally got time to chat to her about my studies.
    When you experience that a million times over, you conclude you must boring and/or a freak - hardly grounds to establish superiority complex.

    Some of us N's have gather our self esteem some how, some times we over compensate...
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  7. #87
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Good post, proteanmix.

    What has been said many times, but not always focused on, is the fact that being one type does not exclude a person from using all eight functions. One of the strongest ESFJ women I know focuses her energies on caring for many people's concrete temporal needs and uses a diary as a way to catalog all the meals she has prepared rather than for exploring an inner world. Her thoughts and conversations tend to focus on filling concrete needs. She is interesting and admirable for this alone, but there was one conversation with her I will always remember. She was reminiscing about her life with her family and happened to mention that as the oldest of many children, she used to invent whimsical bedtime stories to help her siblings focus and fall asleep. The people around her were surprised because she doesn't often show that side of herself. It is part of her just like the marrow in her bones, but is just not always visible. Life required something else from her.

    I also have a strongly ISTJ aunt who spends her time and energy doing bookkeeping and maintaining a used book business. Years ago I visited her when I was 18 and made some imaginative comments about how evokative and inspiring her old Victorian house was. She insisted I read "Anne of Green Gables" and felt I was much like the character. She never expresses imagination, but we connected more deeply over that character. My impression was that my being imaginative with her struck an inner chord, a part of her that was long buried under ledgers and dusty old books, but still something that centered her as a person.

    And I have a need for concrete physicality at my core and can appreciate when someone can connect with that aspect of me in a way that creates balance.

    I find those core connections that are unexpected because they reveal something meaningful and deep about a person to be the best of all. If someone seems to fit some preset mold, it is worth stepping back and wondering in what way they have the capacity to enlighten and surprise because they do have that capacity. My point is that Sensing and iNtuiting are not two separate boxes, but instead two colors of thread woven to form a unique picture inside of each person.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  8. #88
    Senior Member wrldisquiethere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    An ESFJ came up to me and did the weirdest thing this week.

    She said to me, "Do you know what I do when I get up in the morning?" and I said, "No but you're going to tell me." laugh laugh laugh. Then she continued, "Every morning I get and ask myself how can I make my self better today." And I was like "Seriously?" More conversation. Then she says, "But I've been wondering over the last few months, why am I doing this? What is my rush? Why do I feel like I have to accomplish so much by the time I'm 30? Who am I racing against? I overheard a woman on the subway talking about getting her college degree at 40. Why I am running so hard and fast?"

    She initiated what I would consider an "abstract" conversation and she's only 24! Her Ne isn't due to cross the horizon for at least another 20-25 years! And the conversation was more than 20 minutes! But sadly after that we starting talking about Beyonce.
    Yeah. This doesn't seem weird at all to me. Interesting because until reading this topic, I have never wondered whether or not I am shallow or whether my conversations come across as shallow. People have said that it takes awhile sometimes to get down to the deeper issues and conversations with me. But I don't believe that anyone who is close to me at all would ever think that I am shallow or dislike talking about meaningful things. I do...as long as they have practical application to my life or to the life of someone I care about.

    Using movies as an example once again, I admit that there are many movies that my N friends can look at and glean multiple meanings from, and I sit and listen to them talk about this and it's lost on me. At times they're meanings I wonder how I could have missed. However, certain movies are my favorites BECAUSE of their meanings, and I'm not at all shy about discussing these movies. The Village, for instance, is one movie which was very meaningful to me because the messages portrayed were ones that I could strongly relate to and had a direct effect on my life.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Problem is I don't think most Ns recognize when the effort is made because they've already written the sensor in question off.

    And one think I consistently see people failing to do in this situation is look at how you interact with the person and take advantage of opportunities for "abstractness" when they arise. Sensing dominates human living. Like unique says, if you want to be a brain in a jar that's your business. And once again I find that most intuitives on this forum have a very strict and rigid sense of what is considered abstract conversation. Philosophy and religion being to two major ones. Look at how many threads about Is There a God that pop up every gotdamn week. It's the same thing over and over again. There are infinitely abstract conversations out there to be had even if it's about bubble wrap.

    And you glossed over the part I said about cultivating an atmosphere and platform for these conversations to take place. If deign to step off your N pedestal and sit and have lunch or go to happy hour or whatever else opportunity to that arises to get to know a person in depth you may be surprised what they say on their own without any prompting from you. I've had INTJs (yes more than one!) break down and tell me their fears, ISTPs (more than one!) say how deeply they felt something in a movie, ESFJs (more than one!) wander into some pretty deep philosophical conversations and one particular instance was after leaving a club between complaining about how much our feet hurt.

    Where are you when these moments occur? Too busy thinking 'oh, waiting for a conversation like this with an sensor is like waiting for grass to grow.' I also realize that I probably have a higher than average opportunity for these things to happen in my presence simply because of who I am and how I interact with people. I ask people probing questions and get them to keep talking. I'm also looking for cues of when they're puttering out on a particular type of conversation. I do a lot of ground work to get people to talk to me in what I hope is a mutually satisfying manner.

    On some level, if you're the one with the knowledge and understanding then it kind of is your responsibility to bridge gaps since you may be the only one who recognizes one is there. Yes it's maddening and frustrating but what are your alternatives? Get angry and sulk? To whom much is given, much is expected.
    QFT.


    Quote Originally Posted by sabastious View Post

    I really saw what the makers of WALL-E were trying to get at. WALL-E and EVE broke out of their "programming" when it seemed to be obsolete. The AUTO bot was just the opposite, he followed "orders" to a fault and nearly killed all the people he was created to protect on the Axiom.

    I was explaining this to an S and her reply was: "WALL-E makes funny noises." It was a bit tongue and cheek but that's how the conversation ended. She was basically saying that she couldn't care less about the moral values of the story, and I would assume she is confused why I would care about them.
    .
    I keep going back to what you said here. Haha. I just keep thinking that perhaps you misunderstood her meaning when she said what she did. Now I wasn't there to observe this, so I can't say for sure, and when you say that she was indicating that she couldn't care less what you were saying, you could be right. I know a lot of people on this thread have commented that this behavior is just stupid and idiotic. But honestly, if I had just observed this conversation take place, I probably wouldn't have thought anything of it. I would just think that both people were offering their observations about the movie. One obviously lighthearted, but I wouldn't think of it as insensitive. Just goes to show me how clueless I might be about how important these kind of things are to NF's.
    Si, Fe equal Fi & Ti

    "I had a bag of Fritos, they were Texas grilled Fritos. These Fritos had grill marks on them. They remind me of summer, when we used to fire up the barbeque and throw down some Fritos. I can still see my dad with the apron on. Better flip that Frito, dad, you know how I like it." -Mitch Hedberg

  9. #89
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireyPheonix View Post
    I don't want people pouring out thier emotion to me all the time....I'd drown!
    I do however spend quite a substantial amount of time alone, and when I'm with people, I kinda want my conversations to mean something and get out all my thoughts....people tend to look at you funny when you admit you've been pondering the down fall of capitalism, off the bat. I spend a lot of time listening to people talk about what they brought for lunch, whether they are going to go to that concert next week?what colour doona they should get?
    I don't always get say what's on my mind. I could easily say that 80% of the time we don't even touch upon the things on my mind. In fact, some times I don't get a word in edge wise. How can I set up the platform for a deeper conversation under those circumstances? Goodness knows, I've tried, and get cut off dead.
    This, this, this, this is your problem I feel.

    Nothing is wrong with being a quiet person who doesn't express themselves very often. But what I continually find to be the problem people have when wanting to engage people is that you (not you specifically but you have an excellent example of what I'm talking about) when YOU are ready to engage you have nothing foundational set to engage at that level. You've probably tuned out all that other stuff you consider minor and insignificant that OTHER people view as the building blocks to something more. Yet another example with that same ESFJ is one about her year old son. I have (not had to, but I choose to) sit through stories about the baby, disgusting cute things baby did, baby peeing on her and it was so cute, baby going through trash and getting a sanitary napkin it was so cute, blah blah blah, only later to get the conversation of What Kind of Mother Will I Be, How Do I Want To Raise My Child, What Kind of World is My Child Growing Up In, etc. etc.

    Think about it exactly as you said it. No one has given YOU the platform to have those types of conversations have they? You're waiting for your opportunity right? Maybe someone out there will patiently listen and smile and occasionally comment while you wax on about capitalism and that would be right up your alley wouldn't it? And then they seize upon that moment in time when you say something about baking your sponge cake to just the right consistency and it tasting like a little slice of shangri-la in your mouth and they're like FINALLY!!

    Yes, I understand the need to sometimes not go through all that "minor" stuff and talk about The Media as the Four Branch of Government, but even look at this forum as example. Are not the most popular threads here the ones meant solely for social purposes? Go do a search of the most viewed and commented in threads and I guarantee you they are not about epistemology of religious beliefs. It's probably the Picture Time thread and we've had to cut the serious conversations out of that thread in the past to keep it in all of it's fluffy glory.

    I don't really know how to tell you how to get people not to cut you off dead when you start. I know that one of my methods is always celebrity gossip with women. The conversation will start one way, go off on a tangent more to my liking then probably come back to the original vein of conversation. Or like I was recently talking with a few people about the Sonia Sotomayor comments and we went into a discussion about what she meant when she said a wise Latina and what more diversity on the Supreme Court would mean. It was a racially mixed group of people and I found the conversation satisfying, but maybe someone else didn't.

    Like I said, I don't know. I find these opportunities exist in virtually any conversation I have. And maybe it's just the type of personality that I have I am not afraid of steering a conversation down a certain path. And I can tell how receptive people are by how involved they get in the conversation. I don't expect to have conversations with 100% participation so maybe you would in fact be one of the people who is bored to death by my soporific sensorific convos.

    When I want to jump straight into wham bam thank you mam abstract conversation I go to my film and philosophical discussion group where that's all we do is discuss that. But even there the conversation will occasionally lapse into some talk about kids and dinner. I don't know how to get around it.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireyPheonix View Post
    Don't get me wrong, the world would be a poorer place without sensors...but talking about what brand of moisteriser you use, while actually useful (I'll admitt that),when I'm trying to ask you about something of emotional (and/or theoritcal) importance tells you are not picking up my signals. (I don't mean you personally). This happened so much with my mother, I could only conclude
    she wasn't interested. Her eyes would litterally glaze over when I finally got time to chat to her about my studies.
    When you experience that a million times over, you conclude you must boring and/or a freak - hardly grounds to establish superiority complex.
    Yes, pretty much this. My ISFJ mother and I sometimes have a hard time with conversation in general. When I'm over at her place, I'm bombarded with questions such as whether I want to take home some Dijon or honey mustard, and, if so, what brand.. so on and so forth. I don't know the difference between Dijon and honey mustard, nor do I particularly care about the difference. It's an example of a point that's kind of lost on me.

    Often, I'll try to talk to her about something emotional or, from my perspective, deeper than "surface-level," and I'll be interrupted with these sorts of questions from her. I used to wonder whether she actually cared.

    However, if I can get her out of the house where these distractions don't exist and where her natural tendencies kick in, such as out in nature, I'm more successful.

    I have conversation gaps with other intuitives, too, but in different ways.. often related to subject matter. I have much better "people-oriented" conversations with my mother than I do with my ENTj father, but I can talk technology, politics, and other subjects with him all day. I've come to realize that I can be pretty straightforward and blunt with him, which is nice and convenient when we're talking about subjects where we have major disagreement

    Often, when I talk to intuitives--especially ones I know, and especially extroverted ones--we can finish each others' sentences pretty easily or "get the point" with missing information. That can be good, because my mouth often works faster than my brain can form coherent and full sentences

    However, sometimes when I converse with another intuitive, we'll both leave out details that should probably be included in the conversation.. either we don't think of the details, we can't remember them, or we just gloss over them when we speak. That doesn't make for good conversation, either.

    This can probably explain a conversation gap that sometimes occurs between my INFP and me. I'll have a full, busy day at work, and either not remember what happened that day or forget something semi-important and semi-interesting that occurred that would spark meaningful conversation.

    I nearly always take on the full burden of effectively communicating with another person; I try to meet them on their turf, wherever that is. After all, I'm only in control of how I speak and listen. And, to that end, I'm in a constant state of learning to reach others.. and I'm getting a lot out of this thread.

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