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  1. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post


    Sorry I brought up dogs. That so wasn't the point.
    Is your point that these sorts of patterns just inherently exist? Because that's an Ne trait, as the functions are defined.

    That means that everyone probably has access to Ne. Which they do.

    The red light doesn't mean anything outside of its context, really--it is "just" a red light (this mode of thinking is sort what Ni would believe). It only works because we associate red with lots of bad things. In general, the color tells us, through other unrelated contexts, to proceed with caution, to pay attention, or to stop.

    Repetition is just one way to reinforce patterns and correlations between unrelated contexts. Pushing a lever doesn't really have much to do with obtaining food through some dispenser, but pigeons have learned the connection.

    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    i'm assuming you want the want the truth
    Such a question can mean anything. They can be looking for reassurance, they could want you to notice the dress, they could want you to notice them.. it goes on and on.

    Assuming that one wants the truth is a decent starting point, though.

  2. #172
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greed View Post
    Is your point that these sorts of patterns just inherently exist? Because that's an Ne trait, as the functions are defined.

    That means that everyone probably has access to Ne. Which they do.



    Such a question can mean anything. They can be looking for reassurance, they could want you to notice the dress, they could want you to notice them.. it goes on and on.

    Assuming that one wants the truth is a decent starting point, though.
    yes I realize this, I'm not totally clueless, still, I'm not going to waste my time trying to figure out what they mean, and why not ask "what do you think of me in this dress?" because that's more direct then does this "dress make me look fat?" in a weird twisted way.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  3. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    yes I realize this, I'm not totally clueless, still, I'm not going to waste my time trying to figure out what they mean, and why not ask "what do you think of me in this dress?" because that's more direct then does this "dress make me look fat?" in a weird twisted way.
    Because some people value traits other than directness and absolute truth. Emotions, relations, and so on all play into this.

    Why not at least attempt to meet them on their level? That's an even more efficient way to communicate with another person than just plain directness, because what you mean is actually reaching them unfiltered. And it's more efficient to modify your mode of communication than it is for you to influence that of everyone else you have to deal with.

  4. #174
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    i don't influence anyone. i don't expect people to be direct, in fact i know most won't be.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  5. #175
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greed View Post
    Is your point that these sorts of patterns just inherently exist? Because that's an Ne trait, as the functions are defined.

    That means that everyone probably has access to Ne. Which they do.

    The red light doesn't mean anything outside of its context, really--it is "just" a red light (this mode of thinking is sort what Ni would believe). It only works because we associate red with lots of bad things. In general, the color tells us, through other unrelated contexts, to proceed with caution, to pay attention, or to stop.

    Repetition is just one way to reinforce patterns and correlations between unrelated contexts. Pushing a lever doesn't really have much to do with obtaining food through some dispenser, but pigeons have learned the connection.
    Okay, then the traffic light has both symbol and signal meaning. One can learn the signal meaning without any knowledge of the symbol meaning. You don't have to know anything about the history of colors representing things to observe that the traffic goes when the light turns green and stops when it turns red.

    I looked up a dictionary definition of intuition. Sadly, the definitions I could find were all pretty vague, but most basically said "cognition without a reasoning process." I can believe that it is possible to do such a thing, but I don't believe it is done nearly as much as most people posting here do apparently. I certainly have to say I disagree with Jung's theory that intuition is something that everybody has/does to some degree. It's just too unlikely for me to accept.
    Jeffster Illustrates the Artisan Temperament <---- click here

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  6. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    I said something about taking things too literally? Do all of your debates consist of putting words in others' mouths?
    Sorry thought it was you that said it


    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    You would need to come up with the idea of a stop sign in the first place. Which would require intuition.
    Oh it would, would it? Fairly sure that not all ideas come from intuition


    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Right. Both sensing and intuition are needed.
    Needed is an interesting word, I think its better that there is both but needed? hum

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Okay, then the traffic light has both symbol and signal meaning. One can learn the signal meaning without any knowledge of the symbol meaning. You don't have to know anything about the history of colors representing things to observe that the traffic goes when the light turns green and stops when it turns red.

    I looked up a dictionary definition of intuition. Sadly, the definitions I could find were all pretty vague, but most basically said "cognition without a reasoning process." I can believe that it is possible to do such a thing, but I don't believe it is done nearly as much as most people posting here do apparently. I certainly have to say I disagree with Jung's theory that intuition is something that everybody has/does to some degree. It's just too unlikely for me to accept.
    Same

  7. #177
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unique View Post
    Oh it would, would it? Fairly sure that not all ideas come from intuition
    Ideas that involve symbolism are directly related to intuition. Intuition creates associations between things that are are seemingly unrelated.
    If you don't grasp this, then you need to read up on the functions more.

    The red traffic signal is symbolic for "stop". Someone had to assign that meaning to the signal. Long ago, the red color was just a color and stood for nothing; now it has many meanings, depending on context.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  8. #178
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    I wouldn't be looking for dictionary definitions, I think we're all referring to either the two jungian functions or both of them grouped together as N in mbti. I think you guys are making out intuition to be something far more special than it really is, I mean it can be special and so can sensing but in their most basic forms the functions are very mundane things that we all do.

    In my opinion the functions are absolutely useless in isolation, they need to be and are always used together.

    Sensing sees the red light and sensing sees the cars stopping but to me it is an intuitive leap that connects the two.
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  9. #179
    HAHHAHHAH! INTJ123's Avatar
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    this might sound cold, or mean, but as far as I'm concerned SJs are the drones and clones of society, the way they think...guuuhhh i'll be nice and say simplistic, and the sheer amount of them that there are (clone analogy). However I'm much more likely to get along with SFJ than STJ, the FJ is more likely to be agreeable at least.

  10. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Okay, then the traffic light has both symbol and signal meaning. One can learn the signal meaning without any knowledge of the symbol meaning. You don't have to know anything about the history of colors representing things to observe that the traffic goes when the light turns green and stops when it turns red.
    Right. My point is that, inherently, a light shining red doesn't inherently mean that one should stop; the color "red" was likely chosen due to custom and already-existing associations like those I described. It takes a connection between those ideas, which may or may not have a sound logical basis, for the red light to mean what it does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    I think you guys are making out intuition to be something far more special than it really is, I mean it can be special and so can sensing but in their most basic forms the functions are very mundane things that we all do.
    Yeah pretty much this. Intuition isn't some magical ability that's far beyond the layman's reach.. at its core, it's just associations between seemingly unrelated ideas.

    In my opinion the functions are absolutely useless in isolation, they need to be and are always used together.

    Sensing sees the red light and sensing sees the cars stopping but to me it is an intuitive leap that connects the two.
    This, too. The intuition that tells one to stop would be useless without actually sensing the red light.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTJ123 View Post
    this might sound cold, or mean, but as far as I'm concerned SJs are the drones and clones of society, the way they think...guuuhhh i'll be nice and say simplistic, and the sheer amount of them that there are (clone analogy). However I'm much more likely to get along with SFJ than STJ, the FJ is more likely to be agreeable at least.
    lol

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