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  1. #91
    Senior Member seeker22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greed View Post
    My ISFJ mother and I sometimes have a hard time with conversation in general. When I'm over at her place, I'm bombarded with questions such as whether I want to take home some Dijon or honey mustard, and, if so, what brand.. so on and so forth. I don't know the difference between Dijon and honey mustard, nor do I particularly care about the difference.

    Often, I'll try to talk to her about something emotional or, from my perspective, deeper than "surface-level," and I'll be interrupted with these sorts of questions from her. I used to wonder whether she actually cared.
    God I SO identify with this conversational exchange!! Perfectly captures my interactions with an ISFJ friend!

    And I'm starting to see what is meant as far as creating the "platform" for deeper levels of conversation to occur... I find that most often I am creating "platforms" for others (Like the greater S population), yet less often find this type of "platform" created for me as an "N."

  2. #92
    Senior Member Silent Stars's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    From what I'm interpreting people saying in this thread is they expect this type of conversation non-stop all the time. And the type of abstract conversations I think NFs want is to have someone pour out their heart and soul. I'd like to ask those who feel like they're not getting enough of this type of conversation from people what are you doing to cultivate an atmosphere where people feel comfortable talking to you like this? Certainly, you understand that some people (I'd say most people) wouldn't casually bust out with this? So many of these complaints are based on the fact that you may be closed off yourself and when you do decide to foray into conversations like this with others you have no foundation or platform set for them to happen. And then you get upset when they don't happen when you've done nothing to make them happen.
    I can't say that any of this applies to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Honestly, I wouldn't even talk to half of the people who've commented on this thread about anything abstract and deep because I seriously detect a superior attitude and perhaps others detect this as well.
    You're seeing something that isn't there.

    Quote Originally Posted by seeker22 View Post
    I find that most often I am creating "platforms" for others (Like the greater S population), yet less often find this type of "platform" created for me as an "N."
    Same for me.
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  3. #93
    Senior Member seeker22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I seriously detect a superior attitude
    Maybe you are projecting??

  4. #94
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seeker22 View Post
    Are you projecting??
    You mean am I inferring deeper meaning into something that may not exist? Reading too much into it? Wiki tells me: Projecting is a defense mechanism where a person's personal attributes, unacceptable or unwanted thoughts, and/or emotions are ascribed onto another person or people. An example of this behavior might be blaming another for one's own failure.

    Wow, that's such an N thing to do...can't really say I engage in such frivolity. Where would my failure lie? I'm not the one(s) complaining I can't get a meaningful conversation with 8/10 people I come into contact with.

    I'm just so tired of the whining when several sensors have contributed how erroneous this POV is and you complainers want to continue marching forward completely ignoring all other input. Maybe you should get new friends where you can engage with them in a more satisfying manner. That's the only piece of useful advice I can give if everything else I've said has been reduced to projecting.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  5. #95
    Senior Member Silent Stars's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I'm just so tired of the whining when several sensors have contributed how erroneous this POV is and you complainers want to continue marching forward completely ignoring all other input.
    Where is this happening? I'm not seeing it.
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  6. #96
    Senior Member seeker22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Wiki tells me: Projecting is a defense mechanism where a person's personal attributes, unacceptable or unwanted thoughts, and/or emotions are ascribed onto another person or people.
    Yup.

  7. #97
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unique View Post
    True on the "tune out" part but BS that is because it causes stress or being uncomfortable
    I don't know why sensors tune out, I was just posing a theory. But I do indeed get the sense that the ESxPs I know feel uncomfortable with this kind of conversation. This may not apply to you, of course.

    MBTI is a system of what you use "most of the time" now now.... don't be jealous that we use the more practical sensing option a majority of the time
    OMG...you're so right! I'm completely jealous of your lopsided focus on the concrete world. I have no idea how to do that.

    When we live in fairy land, let me know, I'll make the switch to intuition
    Fairy land...hmmm. I wonder why sensors are allowed to make derogatory comments about intuition, but when the situation is reversed, people call it condescending.

  8. #98
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    This, this, this, this is your problem I feel.

    Nothing is wrong with being a quiet person who doesn't express themselves very often. But what I continually find to be the problem people have when wanting to engage people is that you (not you specifically but you have an excellent example of what I'm talking about) when YOU are ready to engage you have nothing foundational set to engage at that level. You've probably tuned out all that other stuff you consider minor and insignificant that OTHER people view as the building blocks to something more. Yet another example with that same ESFJ is one about her year old son. I have (not had to, but I choose to) sit through stories about the baby, disgusting cute things baby did, baby peeing on her and it was so cute, baby going through trash and getting a sanitary napkin it was so cute, blah blah blah, only later to get the conversation of What Kind of Mother Will I Be, How Do I Want To Raise My Child, What Kind of World is My Child Growing Up In, etc. etc.

    Think about it exactly as you said it. No one has given YOU the platform to have those types of conversations have they? You're waiting for your opportunity right? Maybe someone out there will patiently listen and smile and occasionally comment while you wax on about capitalism and that would be right up your alley wouldn't it? And then they seize upon that moment in time when you say something about baking your sponge cake to just the right consistency and it tasting like a little slice of shangri-la in your mouth and they're like FINALLY!!

    Yes, I understand the need to sometimes not go through all that "minor" stuff and talk about The Media as the Four Branch of Government, but even look at this forum as example. Are not the most popular threads here the ones meant solely for social purposes? Go do a search of the most viewed and commented in threads and I guarantee you they are not about epistemology of religious beliefs. It's probably the Picture Time thread and we've had to cut the serious conversations out of that thread in the past to keep it in all of it's fluffy glory.

    I don't really know how to tell you how to get people not to cut you off dead when you start. I know that one of my methods is always celebrity gossip with women. The conversation will start one way, go off on a tangent more to my liking then probably come back to the original vein of conversation. Or like I was recently talking with a few people about the Sonia Sotomayor comments and we went into a discussion about what she meant when she said a wise Latina and what more diversity on the Supreme Court would mean. It was a racially mixed group of people and I found the conversation satisfying, but maybe someone else didn't.

    Like I said, I don't know. I find these opportunities exist in virtually any conversation I have. And maybe it's just the type of personality that I have I am not afraid of steering a conversation down a certain path. And I can tell how receptive people are by how involved they get in the conversation. I don't expect to have conversations with 100% participation so maybe you would in fact be one of the people who is bored to death by my soporific sensorific convos.

    When I want to jump straight into wham bam thank you mam abstract conversation I go to my film and philosophical discussion group where that's all we do is discuss that. But even there the conversation will occasionally lapse into some talk about kids and dinner. I don't know how to get around it.
    Ah, I think I understand what you're saying here.

    But to be honest, while I like people a little bit, I'm not interested in emotionally investing myself in their lives to this extent. I'd rather interact with people online who'll dump this stuff on me right away than work for it. If I have to work for it, I'd honestly rather just ignore them and focus only on practical issues while in their presence. It may seem lazy, but that's kind of how I feel.

    I don't really expect anything from Sensors or Extraverts. I've accepted that we have different roles in life. They live in their world, and I live in mine. We intersect on the plane of practical, day-to-day tasks (could potentially help one another there), and then go our separate ways. Them to their goofy social lives, me to my computer to talk on this forum. This is the way it should be, IMO. Both types of people doing what we most want to do is ideal.

    I don't want Sensors to be less shallow, honestly. Otherwise, what would I define my own depth in relation to? The world needs shallow people, and it needs deeper people. They all fit into the larger picture in their own place.

  9. #99
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Ah, I think I understand what you're saying here.

    But to be honest, while I like people a little bit, I'm not interested in emotionally investing myself in their lives to this extent. I'd rather interact with people online who'll dump this stuff on me right away than work for it. If I have to work for it, I'd honestly rather just ignore them and focus only on practical issues while in their presence.

    I don't really expect anything from Sensors or Extraverts. I've accepted that we have different roles in life. They live in their world, and I live in mine. We intersect on the plane of practical, day-to-day tasks, and then go our separate ways. Them to their goofy social lives, me to my computer to talk on this forum. This is the way it should be, IMO.
    And I understand what you mean as well.

    Personally, it's a little like beachcombing. You're going to find a lot of lost car keys. Some of the keys will be to buckets and some of those will be to BMWs. You won't know unless you start looking.

    And this is part of my evil egotrip I like to go on so it's not anything I want to come across as gloating about. I really like getting personal with people so my hands are not clean either, but the benefits (well they're benefits for me) is that I get people that I don't think would typically open up to start opening up.

    This is a true example conversation and let's take a typically conversation people have at work with a person you're relatively comfortable with. And this is a very Fe conversation and female at that so I don't know if others will see that value in this approach.

    Person A: Man, am I ever glad it's Friday!
    Person B: Yeah, only two more days before it starts all over again.
    A: What are you doing this weekend?
    B: Well my youngest daughter and her husband are coming into town so we'll probably go out somewhere.
    A: How are you liking your empty nest?
    B: It's quiet and I don't mind the quiet, but sometimes I wish my kids would visit more often. It's just me and the dog.

    There are many types of deep conversations to be had out there. Sometimes it's just recognizing when someone is beginning it with you. If you're like :rolli: not again. She's about to start talking about her kids and grandkids. I don't want to hear this you're missing the underlying fear of aging and being alone, which to me is the deeper abstract conversation. Yeah you could gloss over it, but that was the opportunity right there in my example. If the person doesn't want to go there, what can you do about it? And if they do go there, what do you have to say about it?

    I remember learning in school about the different types of conversations
    1. Dialectic conversation focuses on framing a logical argument for distilling the truth.
    2. Discussion conversation is the forum in which many of us advocate for our own individual position.
    3. Dialogue conversation is a conversation where meaning is constructed through sharing.
    4. Design conversation focuses on creating something new.


    My order of operations are 3, 2, 4, 1 and my method of getting 4 satisfied (which I think intuitives concentrate on) is by patiently shuffling through 3 and 2 first. My method is not necessarily the best method, but it works for me. If you're with a group of people who want to exclusively focus on 1 and 4 which tend to be divorced from personal relevancy, IME you're going to have to warm people up to that. It's not unsuccessful it just requires some time and maybe some commitment on your part if you're the one looking for the more "satisfying" conversation.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  10. #100
    Scream down the boulevard LadyJaye's Avatar
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    I've learned from living all my life with an ESTJ parent, that it drives her crazy when I can't arrive at the point. Fair enough. It probably is tedious. For my S friends, especially my SJ's, I make a serious effort to be as tangible and direct as possible. They don't like a bunch of superfluous information, so that's how I accommodate them.

    MBTI has taught me the invaluable lesson that not everyone is like me, and that this is not a bad thing. I've learned so much about my SJ parent, where before we had a terrible time communicating.

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