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[MBTI General] Abusing the Mentor: ENTP-INFJ Relations

cattywample

New member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
41
MBTI Type
eNFP
Before I hone in on the focal point of my post, I’d like to provide a little personal background. Please bear with me.

During my teenage years I had a tendency to fall into student-mentor relationships with INFJs. I was the student, the INFJs my unofficial mentors. Through their friendship and my knowledge of their thoughts and philosophies, they directly and indirectly encouraged me to better myself in as many ways as I could. Even though I’ve fallen out of contact with some of the INFJs I used to know, I keep them in my thoughts and continue to wish them well.

My most recent “mentor”– an INFJ 9 years my senior– is probably the most caring and hardworking person I’ve ever encountered. We met on a livejournal community that she moderates for. The INFJ is a very efficient moderator and whenever a conflict explodes out she instantly moves in to (gently) ease it away. Even at the extent of internalizing negativity, she always treats people with respect and helps them with their problems.

Now, my point. I am naturally a very confident person. Unfortunately, this means that I have the harmful tendency to voice my thoughts on conflicts in an aggressive way. This aggression, felt by me to be passion, often reads to people (as I have been told) as hateful. Even when I endeavor to be as civil as I can my voice reads rigid and unapproachable. As you might imagine, this tendency led to me unintentionally stirring up many conflicts in the community with a variety of different people.

When "my" conflicts (my anger is legendary in this LJ community, which saddens me) crop up, the INFJ mod always ends up having to swoop in and save the situation. She usually steers me into a private forum to discuss the matter with me where the other members won't see it. This method works and always ends in resolution. Done. Over. It does, unfortunately, also have the side effect of making the INFJ's life a living hell. All of the conflicts that I stir up, she internalizes and blames herself for. Everything is taken very personally, even when the conflicts have little to do with her at all. (I believe this may be because she feels a lot of personal ownership of the community, but I can't be sure.)

I care deeply about her and always try as hard as I possibly can to not add to the stress in her life. Yet, through one way or another, the same problems seem to occur again and again despite how hard I've been working to monitor my own behavior. I'm only human– I make a lot of mistakes. Thankfully, since the opening of the game, I have managed to curb my aggression and be more empathetic. But I feel that I have done permanent damage to my relationship with the INFJ. She still actively helps and supports me when I’m going through a difficult time, but I can’t help but feel like she’s doing it because she feels obligated to.

In all honesty, however, I can't even pretend to understand her motivations. A lot of her impulses and thoughts are alien to me, even when she explains them in detail. It isn't that I don't comprehend what she's saying– I simply can't wrap my mind around where the feelings originate from.

I admire this INFJ. I want to be her friend and I want to support her. I want to make her life easier by not being a major source of pain. I also want to repair our relationship so that we can be friends and trusted confidants again; so that she won't have to be afraid that I'm going to blow up at any moment and tear her apart.

How can I do this? I've been working on controlling my aggressiveness and the way that I phrase my arguments. So far I have seen results from this process, but they are very slow to come. In the meantime, how can I show her that I appreciate her and care about her as much as I do? How can I make up for the pain I’ve caused her? Can I make up for it?

(I apologize for the TL;DR– I'm normally more concise than this. This is an issue that I feel strongly about and I wanted to describe it in as much detail as I could.)
 

digesthisickness

✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
3,248
MBTI Type
ENTP
whoa. i can't relate to even one sentence of that post.

good luck, NFs!
 

BlahBlahNounBlah

New member
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
1,458
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
7w6
Strange that an ENTP can't control his aggression. ENTPs don't tend to get angry, and when they do, it's short-lived.


Are you mistyped?
 

Scarfism

New member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
120
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
8w9
Before I hone in on the focal point of my post, I’d like to provide a little personal background. Please bear with me.

During my teenage years I had a tendency to fall into student-mentor relationships with INFJs. I was the student, the INFJs my unofficial mentors. Through their friendship and my knowledge of their thoughts and philosophies, they directly and indirectly encouraged me to better myself in as many ways as I could. Even though I’ve fallen out of contact with some of the INFJs I used to know, I keep them in my thoughts and continue to wish them well.

My most recent “mentor”– an INFJ 9 years my senior– is probably the most caring and hardworking person I’ve ever encountered. We met on a livejournal community that she moderates for. The INFJ is a very efficient moderator and whenever a conflict explodes out she instantly moves in to (gently) ease it away. Even at the extent of internalizing negativity, she always treats people with respect and helps them with their problems.

Now, my point. I am naturally a very confident person. Unfortunately, this means that I have the harmful tendency to voice my thoughts on conflicts in an aggressive way. This aggression, felt by me to be passion, often reads to people (as I have been told) as hateful. Even when I endeavor to be as civil as I can my voice reads rigid and unapproachable. As you might imagine, this tendency led to me unintentionally stirring up many conflicts in the community with a variety of different people.

When "my" conflicts (my anger is legendary in this LJ community, which saddens me) crop up, the INFJ mod always ends up having to swoop in and save the situation. She usually steers me into a private forum to discuss the matter with me where the other members won't see it. This method works and always ends in resolution. Done. Over. It does, unfortunately, also have the side effect of making the INFJ's life a living hell. All of the conflicts that I stir up, she internalizes and blames herself for. Everything is taken very personally, even when the conflicts have little to do with her at all. (I believe this may be because she feels a lot of personal ownership of the community, but I can't be sure.)

I care deeply about her and always try as hard as I possibly can to not add to the stress in her life. Yet, through one way or another, the same problems seem to occur again and again despite how hard I've been working to monitor my own behavior. I'm only human– I make a lot of mistakes. Thankfully, since the opening of the game, I have managed to curb my aggression and be more empathetic. But I feel that I have done permanent damage to my relationship with the INFJ. She still actively helps and supports me when I’m going through a difficult time, but I can’t help but feel like she’s doing it because she feels obligated to.

In all honesty, however, I can't even pretend to understand her motivations. A lot of her impulses and thoughts are alien to me, even when she explains them in detail. It isn't that I don't comprehend what she's saying– I simply can't wrap my mind around where the feelings originate from.

I admire this INFJ. I want to be her friend and I want to support her. I want to make her life easier by not being a major source of pain. I also want to repair our relationship so that we can be friends and trusted confidants again; so that she won't have to be afraid that I'm going to blow up at any moment and tear her apart.

How can I do this? I've been working on controlling my aggressiveness and the way that I phrase my arguments. So far I have seen results from this process, but they are very slow to come. In the meantime, how can I show her that I appreciate her and care about her as much as I do? How can I make up for the pain I’ve caused her? Can I make up for it?

(I apologize for the TL;DR– I'm normally more concise than this. This is an issue that I feel strongly about and I wanted to describe it in as much detail as I could.)

Did she ever give you a reason to believe that your relationship has changed?
 

cattywample

New member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
41
MBTI Type
eNFP
That's an interesting thought, but I'm not sure if I find it likely. The aggression and anger (it only morphs into anger when someone takes the firmness with which I express my ideas as a personal attack– when it's clear that I've failed to represent my thoughts properly and logically) are short-lived. For example, I recently had another conflict about two days ago and I'd since moved on from it entirely until another person brought it up to me again. Yet another possibility could be that, because I was rather distraught while writing that, my feelings may have fed into it.

There's always the lingering possibility of mistyping, but in this case I'm not sure if that's the reason behind it. If you have some evidence behind the idea, however, I'd be very interested to hear it (an explanation is an explanation is an explanation).
 

cattywample

New member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
41
MBTI Type
eNFP
Did she ever give you a reason to believe that your relationship has changed?

For months I've been feeling a distance between us that wasn't there before. I don't know if I can trust my own judgment on that, however, because I don't understand her very well. She's an extremely private person.
 

Jonathanthegreat

New member
Joined
Apr 30, 2009
Messages
166
MBTI Type
ENFJ
Before I hone in on the focal point of my post, I’d like to provide a little personal background. Please bear with me.

During my teenage years I had a tendency to fall into student-mentor relationships with INFJs. I was the student, the INFJs my unofficial mentors. Through their friendship and my knowledge of their thoughts and philosophies, they directly and indirectly encouraged me to better myself in as many ways as I could. Even though I’ve fallen out of contact with some of the INFJs I used to know, I keep them in my thoughts and continue to wish them well.

My most recent “mentor”– an INFJ 9 years my senior– is probably the most caring and hardworking person I’ve ever encountered. We met on a livejournal community that she moderates for. The INFJ is a very efficient moderator and whenever a conflict explodes out she instantly moves in to (gently) ease it away. Even at the extent of internalizing negativity, she always treats people with respect and helps them with their problems.

Now, my point. I am naturally a very confident person. Unfortunately, this means that I have the harmful tendency to voice my thoughts on conflicts in an aggressive way. This aggression, felt by me to be passion, often reads to people (as I have been told) as hateful. Even when I endeavor to be as civil as I can my voice reads rigid and unapproachable. As you might imagine, this tendency led to me unintentionally stirring up many conflicts in the community with a variety of different people.

When "my" conflicts (my anger is legendary in this LJ community, which saddens me) crop up, the INFJ mod always ends up having to swoop in and save the situation. She usually steers me into a private forum to discuss the matter with me where the other members won't see it. This method works and always ends in resolution. Done. Over. It does, unfortunately, also have the side effect of making the INFJ's life a living hell. All of the conflicts that I stir up, she internalizes and blames herself for. Everything is taken very personally, even when the conflicts have little to do with her at all. (I believe this may be because she feels a lot of personal ownership of the community, but I can't be sure.)

I care deeply about her and always try as hard as I possibly can to not add to the stress in her life. Yet, through one way or another, the same problems seem to occur again and again despite how hard I've been working to monitor my own behavior. I'm only human– I make a lot of mistakes. Thankfully, since the opening of the game, I have managed to curb my aggression and be more empathetic. But I feel that I have done permanent damage to my relationship with the INFJ. She still actively helps and supports me when I’m going through a difficult time, but I can’t help but feel like she’s doing it because she feels obligated to.

In all honesty, however, I can't even pretend to understand her motivations. A lot of her impulses and thoughts are alien to me, even when she explains them in detail. It isn't that I don't comprehend what she's saying– I simply can't wrap my mind around where the feelings originate from.

I admire this INFJ. I want to be her friend and I want to support her. I want to make her life easier by not being a major source of pain. I also want to repair our relationship so that we can be friends and trusted confidants again; so that she won't have to be afraid that I'm going to blow up at any moment and tear her apart.

How can I do this? I've been working on controlling my aggressiveness and the way that I phrase my arguments. So far I have seen results from this process, but they are very slow to come. In the meantime, how can I show her that I appreciate her and care about her as much as I do? How can I make up for the pain I’ve caused her? Can I make up for it?

(I apologize for the TL;DR– I'm normally more concise than this. This is an issue that I feel strongly about and I wanted to describe it in as much detail as I could.)

wah.
 

cattywample

New member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
41
MBTI Type
eNFP

I appreciate the fact that your repulsion is so strong that you felt the need to respond, sir, but if you're going to mock me at least put some effort into it. Strongly worded criticism I can use, infantile behavior I cannot.
 

Scarfism

New member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
120
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
8w9
For months I've been feeling a distance between us that wasn't there before. I don't know if I can trust my own judgment on that, however, because I don't understand her very well. She's an extremely private person.

If she is still helping you when you need it, I honestly don't think it would be because she feels obligated. I personally would never do anything I didn't want to.
 

Jonathanthegreat

New member
Joined
Apr 30, 2009
Messages
166
MBTI Type
ENFJ
I appreciate the fact that your repulsion is so strong that you felt the need to respond, sir, but if you're going to mock me at least put some effort into it. Strongly worded criticism I can use, infantile behavior I cannot.

waaaaaaaaaah.
 

cattywample

New member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
41
MBTI Type
eNFP
If she is still helping you when you need it, I honestly don't think it would be because she feels obligated. I personally would never do anything I didn't want to.

That's.. very reassuring to know. I tend to wrongly assume that everyone will react to things (injustices, particularly bad arguments, etc.) the same way I do. It's a feeling of "but why would she forgive me for this?"
 

iwakar

crush the fences
Joined
May 2, 2007
Messages
4,877
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
It's hard to give as thorough a response to such a thorough exposition without knowing much of the INFJs thoughts on the matter.

If you're really worried about this, your sincere concern is the best thing you've got going for you. You should just share your concerns with her, as well as your efforts and intentions.

+As for Jonathan, I 'spose that's his version of the adult approach.
 

Jonathanthegreat

New member
Joined
Apr 30, 2009
Messages
166
MBTI Type
ENFJ
It's hard to give as thorough a response to such a thorough exposition without knowing much of the INFJs thoughts on the matter.

If you're really worried about this, your sincere concern is the best thing you've got going for you. You should just share your concerns with her, as well as your efforts and intentions.

+As for Jonathan, I 'spose that's his version of the adult approach.

LOL

you guys do your homework. Ok I'll be nice. I think that you have taken her judgements WAYYYY to critically. Sit back, void yourself of emotion, and look at the entire picture between you two. It's really not as bad as your perceiving it to be.

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.- Eleanor Roosevelt.

Think about it. Love you :)
 
P

Phantonym

Guest
For months I've been feeling a distance between us that wasn't there before. I don't know if I can trust my own judgment on that, however, because I don't understand her very well. She's an extremely private person.

Have you tried talking to her about it? Do you know that she is distant (you have some proof) or do you only think that she is?

Feeling that she is distant can be misleading. You cannot read her mind and she cannot read yours. Miscommunication occurs. Maybe you should tell her all the things you mentioned in your original post. You could only be imagining all this.

By telling her that you have these concerns might clear the air. Thinking about it will only make it worse for you if you really want to know what's wrong between you and her. Maybe there's nothing wrong and you're just blowing this way out of proportion.

Hope it all works out :)
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

failure to thrive
Joined
Feb 20, 2009
Messages
5,585
MBTI Type
INfj
Enneagram
451
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Unfortunately, this means that I have the harmful tendency to voice my thoughts on conflicts in an aggressive way. This aggression, felt by me to be passion, often reads to people (as I have been told) as hateful. Even when I endeavor to be as civil as I can my voice reads rigid and unapproachable. As you might imagine, this tendency led to me unintentionally stirring up many conflicts in the community with a variety of different people.

you'll fit in nicely here then. :angry:


and


not all infj will internalize your problems. maybe she has a boundary issue. should she even be taking your heated discussions personally?
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
4,310
MBTI Type
INTJ
I admire this INFJ. I want to be her friend and I want to support her. I want to make her life easier by not being a major source of pain. I also want to repair our relationship so that we can be friends and trusted confidants again; so that she won't have to be afraid that I'm going to blow up at any moment and tear her apart.

How can I do this? I've been working on controlling my aggressiveness and the way that I phrase my arguments. So far I have seen results from this process, but they are very slow to come. In the meantime, how can I show her that I appreciate her and care about her as much as I do? How can I make up for the pain I’ve caused her? Can I make up for it?

Ask her.

No, seriously, ask her. If there ever was anyone who could describe the direction you're asking after, it'd be an INFJ, and she's an INFJ. And she's the one you want to work with. So ask her.


Or come out to everyone as ESTP/ENTJ.
 

Athenian200

Protocol Droid
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
8,828
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
That's.. very reassuring to know. I tend to wrongly assume that everyone will react to things (injustices, particularly bad arguments, etc.) the same way I do. It's a feeling of "but why would she forgive me for this?"

I will say that she probably does feel concerned about you, but I think she actually has forgiven you.

I'm generally willing to forgive people for things, repeatedly, that some other people couldn't put up with, like what you described. My personal line is a lot further back than you'd think it is. If anything, I would feel good about having an opportunity to help you out with a problem, and possibly better yourself. Also, I know that I'll lose it and screw up somehow eventually myself (even though I usually don't), and I want to be forgiven in return when that happens.

The distance could be due to energy drain in other places. I become distant from people when I'm tired, busy, or depressed. Also, she might have sensed your concerns about this, and perhaps has misinterpreted it as you feeling like she's "butting in" too much. INFJs easily feel unwelcome.

Does that make sense?
 
V

violaine

Guest
I can only present my own POV in trying to address your questions - if I were moderating I would tire of having to address a recurring problem if we had talked in depth about it a few times. I would keep trying out of a sense of responsibility but I wouldn't feel invested in someone at that point. I would be somewhat distant. As I am quite accustomed to the feeling of sudden disconnect, it's not really hard to overcome. All it takes for me to be initially accessible again is the for the other person to say, "I'm trying" or the like.

If you haven't already done so, it would be helpful if you told her that you aren't angry when you are being aggressive. Help her understand your style of communication/debating.
 

nightning

ish red no longer *sad*
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,741
MBTI Type
INfj
I appreciate the fact that your repulsion is so strong that you felt the need to respond, sir, but if you're going to mock me at least put some effort into it. Strongly worded criticism I can use, infantile behavior I cannot.

Is this the sort of posts you make in the LJ community that gets you into trouble?

It's perfectly acceptable here in MBTIc. It probably occurs quite frequently in INTPc. Essentially I don't think there's anything "wrong" that you MUST change. It's probably the atmosphere of that particular LJ community that makes it awkward.

In my opinion the INFJ moderator is merely doing her job. Unless she pulls you aside and say "you know, I'm getting tired of this. You really need to change your behaviour" I wouldn't worry overly much about it. Directly asking her as suggested would work too.
 
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