[MBTI General] Abusing the Mentor: ENTP-INFJ Relations

[EcK]

quickly steals the idea and applies to erratically flying moths who aim for the nostrils*

Cannot be done, everybody knows moth are mainly governed by brownian motion. their central nervous system just can't handle navigation. The same kind of algorithms are behind most of enfjs' ramblings

But that reminds me that moths do have a tendency to go after NF girls wearing dirty socks



Here's a preview of the last thing pink'll ever see

 

[Domino]

Cannot be done, everybody knows moth are mainly governed by brownian motion. their central nervous system just can't handle navigation. The same kind of algorithms are behind most of enfjs' ramblings

But that reminds me that moths do have a tendency to go after NF girls wearing dirty socks

Brownian motion is for quantum-sized beings! (Which I have overcome with a chemical reaction motor to propel the moths through the molasses that is our air!)

My socks are lying wantonly on the floor. I pulled them off with my monkey toes. That's right. I said monkey toes.

 

[EcK]

Brownian motion is for quantum-sized beings! (Which I have overcome with a chemical reaction motor to propel the moths through the molasses that is our air!)

My socks are lying wantonly on the floor. I pulled them off with my monkey toes. That's right. I said monkey toes.

*uses his joker card*

"JAYEE, PINK REFUSES TO EAT!"

:rolli:

 

[Domino]

*uses his joker card*

"JAYEE, PINK REFUSES TO EAT!"

:rolli:

I defeat you with the mighty power of Duran Duran!

 

[EcK]

I defeat you with the mighty power of Duran Duran!

Oh perfect, I just called the Duran Duran intp fan club. I heard one of them 's going to bring Lord of the Ring dvds so you can watch all the 3 movies together and discuss how golum is awesome while they're staring at your boobs.


and a good day to you

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

How can I do this? I've been working on controlling my aggressiveness and the way that I phrase my arguments. So far I have seen results from this process, but they are very slow to come. In the meantime, how can I show her that I appreciate her and care about her as much as I do? How can I make up for the pain I’ve caused her? Can I make up for it?

(I apologize for the TL;DR– I'm normally more concise than this. This is an issue that I feel strongly about and I wanted to describe it in as much detail as I could.)[/FONT]

The part you have control over is your own aggression, so that is good that you are making the effort. It's alright to be honest when talking to her if you feel badly.

I can't speak for your friend, but if there is a similarity between us in terms of type, I'd suggest not underestimating her stamina. I do have to try to not internalize negativity and do work to negotiate peace, but my emotional stamina to do this is pretty strong. When it is too much I withdraw. This withdrawal is in every INFJ descriptions. When she can't handle it, she will withdraw. Until then there is a good chance she is orders of magnitude tougher than you might be assuming.

 

[cattywample]

More TL;DR

Wow, lots of replies. Thanks to everyone who responded. I apologize for taking so long to get back to you all– I had a few things that I needed to do. That being said, I'll now attempt to address everything relevant that's been said so far in a single post. I expect it to be long and potentially lethal.

If you're really worried about this, your sincere concern is the best thing you've got going for you. You should just share your concerns with her, as well as your efforts and intentions.

As luck would have it, I happened to catch this reply before I went to talk with her again. I was very happy to find that this method actually works quite well. We reached a resolution quickly and managed to (as I believe) more or less patch things up between us. I still feel guilty for putting her through all of the stress, but she revealed to me that a host of RL problems had been feeding into it as well. She understands my motivations now and I understand why it hurt her the way it did. Everything seems like it'll be okay, now. I definitely overreacted and managed to allow myself to assume that the worst possible circumstances were coming to pass. Turns out I was... wrong. Very wrong. I'm wrong a lot when it comes to conflicts in relationships, unfortunately..

you guys do your homework. Ok I'll be nice. I think that you have taken her judgements WAYYYY to critically. Sit back, void yourself of emotion, and look at the entire picture between you two. It's really not as bad as your perceiving it to be.

Normally I'm very good at stepping back and viewing things as logically as I can. This time I allowed an unfamiliar feeling to run wild distort my perception. Now that I've had time to sit back, breathe, and think– you're right. It's not that bad. It isn't unmanageable.

Assuming the worst is in my nature when something like this happens, it seems. This time a lot of people I'd considered friends expressed a lot of negativity over something that I'd said and I took that pressure as though I were being ganged up on. The stress was just too much. Yet, again, you're right. When I look at all of this with a clear head, it isn't as bad as I initially perceived it to be.

Have you tried talking to her about it? Do you know that she is distant (you have some proof) or do you only think that she is?

Feeling that she is distant can be misleading. You cannot read her mind and she cannot read yours. Miscommunication occurs. Maybe you should tell her all the things you mentioned in your original post. You could only be imagining all this.

By telling her that you have these concerns might clear the air. Thinking about it will only make it worse for you if you really want to know what's wrong between you and her. Maybe there's nothing wrong and you're just blowing this way out of proportion.

I didn't have any proof as direct as her telling me that she felt distant, but there were a few cues that I picked up on and subsequently translated as distance. We used to talk and joke much more than we do now. Because I didn't ask, however, I understand that this isn't very solid proof. I fault myself and my poor perception for this.

Well, hindsight is 20/20 I suppose.

not all infj will internalize your problems. maybe she has a boundary issue. should she even be taking your heated discussions personally?

I asked her about this, actually, and she explained that she takes members arguing amongst each other very personally. She interprets the fact that the conflicts continue to appear as a sign of failure o her own part. She works hard to facilitate discussions between members when there's a problem, so when issues keep popping up she doesn't see it as humans being humans– she perceives it as evidence that she's made a mistake or somehow been inadequate. (She's a perfectionist to the highest degree.)

I will say that she probably does feel concerned about you, but I think she actually has forgiven you.

I'm generally willing to forgive people for things, repeatedly, that some other people couldn't put up with, like what you described. My personal line is a lot further back than you'd think it is. If anything, I would feel good about having an opportunity to help you out with a problem, and possibly better yourself. Also, I know that I'll lose it and screw up somehow eventually myself (even though I usually don't), and I want to be forgiven in return when that happens.

The distance could be due to energy drain in other places. I become distant from people when I'm tired, busy, or depressed. Also, she might have sensed your concerns about this, and perhaps has misinterpreted it as you feeling like she's "butting in" too much. INFJs easily feel unwelcome.

Does that make sense?

I think all of what you've said here is absolutely correct. It resonates with what she told me when I talked with her. She had been having a very difficult time RL, and online problems only added to the stress. She also said that she does, more often than not, tend towards respecting others' space during times of stress because it's what she'd want herself.

If you haven't already done so, it would be helpful if you told her that you aren't angry when you are being aggressive. Help her understand your style of communication/debating.

This is what I'm going to work on next. The entire community has the tendency to assume that I'm being fierce and argumentative when I feel like I'm trying to engage everyone in a stimulating (and for me, fun) debate.

Is this the sort of posts you make in the LJ community that gets you into trouble?

Not at all. I was very upset during (and after) writing the OP, and receiving a disrespectful response like that one was just too much. It wasn't even the comment itself that bothered me, because I understand very well that the internet is host to some of the most incorrigible people on Earth. Insensitivity and disrespect are my biggest triggers, and he'd managed to hit both of them at once. At the risk of being cliche, it was just the straw that broke the camel's back. Now I'm not upset, I do regret reacting to it the way I did.

But to return to the point.. the conflicts in the community often just attempts to define new rules that hit a miscommunication and fly wildly off the handle. In every conflict the blame rests equally between all parties involved. I, however, just tend to set people off more easily because I express myself much more firmly and refuse to use anonymous commenting. I am aggressive, I know, and I'm working to try and curb my more intimidating tendencies.

It's probably the atmosphere of that particular LJ community that makes it awkward.

I agree– in general it's a poor environment for me in almost every way. I feel very devoted to the community, though, which makes it a difficult place to detach myself from.

lol

As I've discovered, this is the real difference between the ENTP/INFJ perspective. [Considering people on forums to be "real people"]

I very rarely get invested in anyone online. But with this person... I've known her for quite some time and have gotten through some difficult times with her. For these and other reasons, I consider her to be a true friend.

Edit: ...which is why I wonder if cattywample is mistyped.

This could always be possible? I personally feel very lost regarding Typology. Whenever I encounter a definite statement my mind instantly conjures eight ways in which it could be correct– only to seconds later give me eleven that seem to disprove it. ENTP was the description that I felt best fit me out of all of the 16 types. Some of the others felt somewhat possible as well, but I still wasn't sure. I do know that nothing ever fits completely, but it's a little irritating to feel stuck between so many types. I think it may be possible that the majority of my functions are close to the 51/49% mark, or something of that nature.

I know I was very disturbed by the idea I could be seen as aggressive discussing ideas.
In my mind 1) pretty much everything is a game \ joke

2) Discussing is never personal, it's not related to people but to what they say, I mean, if somebody proved me wrong with a nice argument I'd just say and think 'nice one dude' and appreciate it as the quality entertainment\experience it is.

This is actually the first time that I've ever encountered people that felt that my problem-solving approach was intimidating and aggressive. I myself consider it enthusiastic and steadfast, but I can certainly understand how more mellow types may take behavior like this as "attacks".

And yes– even when I'm discussing something seriously I'm often excited beneath the surface. Conveying my words seriously just seems like the most direct, effective way to get the discussion moving as quickly as possible. I dislike it when people insert irrelevant information into a discussion when I'm trying to get a point across. Interjections like these come off to me as though people either aren't taking me seriously (disrespect) or aren't interested (find me unhelpful/boring). I may be a more serious ENTP than is usual, but I do have a loopy side. Recently I've been much more sedate because I've been feeling very beaten by a multiple-people-versus-my-singular-self conflict. More than usual, I've been willing to be compliant for the sake of keeping the peace and my own sanity.

And exactly– discussion is never personal. I never commit myself personally to my own ideas, because I want people to disprove my conceptions. Being corrected means that I can rework my current models and reform my arguments for the better. To me situations like that seem like a win-win– everyone gains something.

For some young entps, it's a bit hard to deal with your everyday caring mature infj.
It's interesting, so the entp won't want it to stop. Like making concessions to keep a discussion developping further if you will.

This is actually... insightful. I'd only dimly considered this possibility before. I've more than once stepped back to look at the situation objectively only to see this as a very real possibility. But in my infinite wisdom, I managed to pull the old "Nah, that can't be it. I'm fooling myself." But in truth I have been doing a lot to try and keep in contact with her. She's a very interesting person and I've learned so much from her that I want to remain friends for as long as possible.

So catty should find another way to bond with the INFJ outside of forum conflict. What about a substantial conversation for one, or hanging out?

Catty, have you ever met this INFJ irl?

I haven't met her IRL, no. We're hoping to meet up eventually at a convention or something of the sort.

I do try to engage her in the kind of conversations that interest me– about human relationships, philosophy, and psychology, but I always get very general and uninterested responses in return. She really values lightheartededness and tends to shy away from any kind of conflict, so when I get going she usually backs off. The time we talk most is when I'm in need of support. Maybe this is because it's the only time when she really knows how to interact with me? Or it might be because she's very private and is still opening up to me. She has been slowly getting more and more comfortable with revealing personal details that she didn't before... But again, I don't know.

I never bother with any relationship that requires so much conscious effort. Either we "get" each other instinctively and knock out the rough edges along the way, or we don't. Though I must say I find the mention of "aggressive" behavior intriguing. You mean you freaked her out?

I don't either, unless I value the person immensely. This relationship, I value.

As for the aggressive behavior... I think I do tend to freak her out a little. Not in the sense that she's afraid of me– she's the only one who will confront me when there's an issue or I've taken something too far– but instead she.... just doesn't seem to know how to react to debate for the sake of debate. I think this may be my fault, as I've never taken the time to explain that it's how I learn and refine my ideas.

So if somebody's interesting we can be willing to do some sacrifices to keep the relation up if we feel like the relation we have with someone isn't one we are likely to obtain with somebody else.

But seeing people as 'who we spend our present\are focusing on at the moment', we do not naturally think of them as part of a complex social spiderweb. So the idea that we can harm somebody and so our relation with that person by something we said \ did when this person wasn't present\concerned by the action\message is a bit hard to adapt to.

And we are at first convinced that we can easily just 'explain that it doesn't concern them\that we didn't mean it this way', with some it doesn't work. Combine that with a unique enough relationship and your classical entp is torn between his natural light spirited cockiness, the pleasure to argue and his\her attachment to an individual.

Exactly. All of this is exactly what I've been feeling and expressing to others. The relationship that I have with this INFJ is something that I've never encountered before; something that I've never even come close to. I'd be willing to sacrifice a lot for the sake of remaining friends. As a result I've ended up tempering my humor and tendencies to poke little jabs at people in jest. The effort is an uncomfortable one, but it has been gaining some unexpected benefits. It's all a fine balance, I suppose.

I can't speak for your friend, but if there is a similarity between us in terms of type, I'd suggest not underestimating her stamina. I do have to try to not internalize negativity and do work to negotiate peace, but my emotional stamina to do this is pretty strong. When it is too much I withdraw. This withdrawal is in every INFJ descriptions. When she can't handle it, she will withdraw. Until then there is a good chance she is orders of magnitude tougher than you might be assuming.

I think this must be true. I myself can't imagine how a person could ever handle as much as she seems to be able to, but again, I shouldn't be allowing my assumptions to get in the way of reality.

 

[Synarch]

Who are these long-winded ENTP's?

 

[cattywample]

Ones who have been feeling a lot of pressure to be socially acceptable™, predictable, and polite as of late.

 

[Jonathanthegreat]

Yo pimpin' keep your head up! Idk if you're a christian or not but either way what Jesus said was true in my opinion: Nothing is impossible to him who BELIEVES! Just believe for your preferred outcome, work towards it, and with patience and persistence you will accomplish it!

Hope you find what you're looking for.

 

[simulatedworld]

Strange that an ENTP can't control his aggression. ENTPs don't tend to get angry, and when they do, it's short-lived.


Are you mistyped?

I think I'm noticing a trend of false perception of mistyped ENTPs because there's a stereotype that they don't get angry and aren't aggressive.

This is very true of most female ENTPs that I've encountered here, and most older male ENTPs--but ENTPs in general are known for maturing slowly.

And testosterone + gender expectations (Fe hasn't yet developed much and so the ENTP can be unaware of its effects, especially given the overemphasis on "rationality" that young NTs often exhibit) can lead to anger/aggression issues in young ENTP males much more commonly than you seem to think. Personally, I tend to indulge in Se as an escape when I'm feeling incompetent because I'm overanalyzing/self-criticizing my behavior or thought patterns too much...it helps me unwind by temporarily letting my mind escape its own thoughts/ease the uncomfortable feeling of incompetence.

They grow out of it, but ask anyone who's had an ENTP son and you'll hear some horror stories about aggressive overcompensation when they see someone as being stupid or unintelligent, and especially if that person has control over them. ENTPs hate being controlled.

Some of us take a long time to balance out emotionally.

 

[Asterion]

I rarely get angry, and I'm a young male. I don't think there is all that much that can piss me off, and when there is, I'll make a joke of it. The enneagram might be a bit more relevant in this circumstance, I would bet that a 7w8 ENTP would be a fair bit more aggressive than a 7w6.

 

[jenocyde]

I think I'm noticing a trend of false perception of mistyped ENTPs because there's a stereotype that they don't get angry and aren't aggressive.

I used to be such an angry little fuck. It just never lasted long and I never cared much about revenge or retaliation after the fact, but if you caught me in the moment... It definitely happens to us women too.

But I also had a shitty childhood and could have been considered "unhealthy" up until a certain point.

And I'm still considered to be quite aggressive, even if I don't think so about myself. (7w8)

I'm rarely angry anymore, though.

 

[cattywample]

I only very rarely get "truly" angry, myself. Most of the time anger comes in the form of minor irritations I can shrug off and forget in a matter of hours. But when I do get very angry, it usually all culminates in a series of massive explosions that almost always end in social disaster. I think, however, that I generally have a looser grip on my anger/aggression than the typical ENTP because I was diagnosed with both Cyclothymia (results in hypomanic states, leading to a marked lack of judgment and tact, etc.) and ADHD at a very young age. All of that working together beneath the surface (along with my own issues and misconceptions) tends towards impulsiveness x ∞.

 

[Domino]

Glad things got sorted, Catty. *nods* Sometimes I think, even as an Extrovert, you can run into Introverts of any type that will assume debate/playful goading/raised voice = angry. You have to make it clear that you're not trying to roll her over like a rogue wave.

I used to be such an angry little fuck. It just never lasted long and I never cared much about revenge or retaliation after the fact, but if you caught me in the moment... It definitely happens to us women too.

But I also had a shitty childhood and could have been considered "unhealthy" up until a certain point.

And I'm still considered to be quite aggressive, even if I don't think so about myself. (7w8)

I'm rarely angry anymore, though.

I wish I had known you then. We could be angry together. (But secretly, lots of hugs for you too. )

I had (still have) a very close ENTP friend. We used to be the only punks on campus. He was the real deal too - no Hot Topic fad. He thought I was a scary harpy until he met me, and I assumed he was some sort of trashbag. After we met though, it was like instant friendship. It was fun trying to figure out to hug him without putting my eye out on the spikes and pins and studs on his biker jacket. haha... The understanding was mutual. We both came from a very hard ugly place, and we were both trying so truly to remain human in spite of how angry we both were.

 

[simulatedworld]

I used to be such an angry little fuck. It just never lasted long and I never cared much about revenge or retaliation after the fact, but if you caught me in the moment

Have you heard the news? This actually makes you an ESFP.

 

[Qre:us]

Have you heard the news? This actually makes you an ESFP.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh brotherr.................

 

[jenocyde]

Have you heard the news? This actually makes you an ESFP.

Actually, I've been told it makes me an ENFJ (no joke).

 

[Domino]

Get out of our ENFJ club, you impostor! *laughs*

 

[Wyst]

OP:

I'm a 28 M INFJ. I agree with sanveane...

.. if I were moderating I would tire of having to address a recurring problem if we had talked in depth about it a few times. I would keep trying out of a sense of responsibility but I wouldn't feel invested in someone at that point. I would be somewhat distant. As I am quite accustomed to the feeling of sudden disconnect, it's not really hard to overcome. All it takes for me to be initially accessible again is the for the other person to say, "I'm trying" or the like.

If you haven't already done so, it would be helpful if you told her that you aren't angry when you are being aggressive. Help her understand your style of communication/debating.

I especially agree that it'd be good to show the INFJ that you're making effort. Not be a burden. Having to readdress a problem numerous times tells me the other person involved either doesn't care or simply doesn't want to change - which makes me want to start putting distance between us.

That doesn't sound like you though, so I'd be up front and honest with her about what you're thinking about. What've you got to lose?