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  1. #31
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    Could you clarify this a bit?
    Sure... typically speaking, personality theories do not give strong support for relationship satisfaction. There are multiple layers of fuzzyness... or better put, it's additive layers of deviations. This is important because a lot of the 'traits' that we talk about in MBTI do not represent everyone that identifies with their type. Built on top of that is the assumption of certain connections being critical (S:N in particular - studies show that this is marginally relevant, if relevant at all...) So, when I say idealization, I'm meaning something specific that was tested specifically - trying to relate it to specific types suffers from the same fuzzyness.

    However, while not entirely predictive, studies shown that idealization of marriage and/or the person you marry has a positive correlation to length and happiness in marriage. It's not terribly surprising - going into something with optimism seems to generate a more positive outcome. Other longitudinal studies support this indirectly, with concepts before marriage playing a fairly significant role. The argument here would be that false expectations are a downside, however it doesn't seem to be a case (least as far as it relates to personality or effect). Hard to say for sure, since it's not really looked at directly... but in all of these situations, the major effect is the lack of communication. Ideals that are not communicated are an issue, as are money issues, sex issues, children issues... etc. But if you look for issues in idealization, you can find them... that doesn't mean it is endemic to a particular type, or that it is, on average, a negative thing (in and of itself). It is very likely that a forer effect can modify a marginally positive trait into a negative one simply because when identifying negative impacts, one makes the connection given the hypothesis (in this case, INFx are most unhappy), when there may be other causes.

    Another interesting thing about this is that the top complaints in relationships really have very little to do with personal interaction. Most people can pair up and be happy, given that the basic framework is in place. It's issues like money, children and mate-guarding that top the list... when you regress issues, there is some connection to personality... but more interesting is if you also look at the correlations to certain types and the big three issues, you find the same correlation.

    So, in my view, one has to be very careful assuming a given issue in any personality, then one must be careful assuming the explanation of the parts of the personality are responsible, and finally, one must be careful not to see the personality at fault and not the indirect effects of the personality.

    (FWIW, as I remember it, ENFJs were the most positively associated (equivalent to other personality theories) to positive relationships... but keep in mind the fuzzyness I talked about above. )

  2. #32
    Circus Maximus Sarcasticus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Hmm...I've read INTPs have the highest dissatisfaction & most problems, because of intimacy issues (not able to get close & communicate positively).
    I read that in a few books my sis has discussing MBTI and relationships, but I don't remember the names...
    It think it's that the other types have the highest level of dissatisfaction with INTPs. . .

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainbows View Post
    Me too, one of my number one fears is having a failed marriage.
    My top fear is having a failed anything.

  4. #34
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcasticus View Post
    It think it's that the other types have the highest level of dissatisfaction with INTPs. . .
    exactly right.

    The INFx's are dissatisfied.

    The INTPs dissatisfy others.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #35
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    One of the main problems I see when people talk about their relationships (and myself too), regardless of type, is the ability to have realistic expectations and disassemble some of the more grandiose expectations. It's really hard and we've been fed so many fairy tales of what relationships are supposed to be. -
    Exactly. Unrealistic standards, I think, are the more "typical" things that torpedo the relationship ... it's usually not the big dramatic event (like a torrid affair).

    ... my mother has said to me if you want to be in a successful LTR you need to take a good hard look at your partners bad qualities and figure out if those are something you can deal with. Those are the things you can't really expect a person to change and how you respond to those things make or break a relationship.
    Very wise, i think, based on my thinking AND on my experience.
    Many inexperienced people just figure the bad stuff will go away or can be changed... and that's setting oneself up for failure.

    I was reading this article yesterday about how a predictor of divorce is how bored partners are with each other. What shakes things up a bit in a LTR or marriage that keeps things growing and interesting if it's not the expectation of something different or something changing for the better? If you have no to low expectations (good or bad) yeah you're less disappointed but are you really happier and satisfied? That's just complacency and acceptance of the relational status quo.
    Either that, or just accepting a standard of "status quo" in what the relationship must look like, are both killers, IMO. Both the ex and the in-laws were conventional people, with a priority of stability... so emotional closeness might be desired but is only secondary to just playing the established roles and doing your job (good ol' protestant work ethic, in context of a marriage) and not paying attention to how you're feeling about things, because feelings are irrelevant. In the end, all that matters is keeping things predictable and stable.

    All the research and data I see shows that not many other married people are faring much better so eh.
    The divorce rate has actually been dropping for a number of years now; and the 50% thing (in the way it's usually meant) has been debunked for some time now, Ivy just noted it the other day.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #36
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
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    1. INFPs and INFJs are the most statistically likely to marry their ESTJ / ESTP opposites. Opposite marriages tend to be the most statistically likely to be unhappy, though.

    2. Many INF_s don't have very realistic expectations of how a relationship works in the real world. About once every week or three I see a post by a young INF_ who is setting themselves up for future relationship dissatisfaction.

    3. INF_s usually need to learn the hard way that they need to modify their values to fit into the real world (and not the other way around). 99% of young INF_s simply aren't ready to take the advice of those that have already been there - they need to experience it and go through the pain themselves. If they happen to marry before learning this lesson...

    4. Both types are prone to avoid conflict until things go "too far", at which point mending the relationship becomes an epic task. Confronting issues as soon as they occur - don't let them fester.

    5. Both types can remain in a bad relationship way too long. INF_s take pride in their ability to judge people and potential, and it takes a great big bite of humble pie to admit we were wrong, or that the situation has changed and no longer fits the ideal.


    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    true, what you are saying. but when you look at a 50% divorce rate (if that is accurate--i'm spouting what i've 'heard'), it appears all types are guilty of the aforementioned, and that the prob of infj pairing is probably a miniscule, infinitesimal part of the overall problems in relating one-on-one..


    I agree 100% with 1 through 5. I also see that INFJs, in their stubborness and believing they are right, still sometimes let their dominant F combined with their values for integrity of the relationship and doing everything they can to mend it, to the death perhaps, and don't stretch to use T and see this objectively.

    Projecting out an already bad relationship, one has to ask are they willing to stay in a bad relationship and bring children even, into a bad marriage. This is a snowballing, and, extrapolating this type of leverage out over time, it is foreseeable that the person takes a hard, heavy hit from introverted perception not seeing the future reality and ends in a massive, shocking, emotional, mental and whole-being engaging correction.

    Its seemingly predictable as the outcome in Spielberg's Minority Report.

    I wonder how willing an INFJ is to listen to an ENTP in this rock-solid thinking. Not being arrogant. Just as an INFJ knows they are right based on their intuition, but don't know why...we know we are right and we know why.

    Human nature...the best is to learn all the functions and strive to do them well, catering ourselves to whatever situation as appropriate.

    It's just sad. Plain sad. For an ENTP, who loves one, to see one do this to oneself. The primary feeling mode takes dominance and all other functions fall secondary, drown out perhaps. Imbalance to the extreme. Hurt.
    "..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
    'Men are meant to be with women. The rest is perversion and mental illness.'

  7. #37
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    again, cascade, an insightful post. it's really nice to read your thoughts and know i am not alone on the relationship front. i totally hear you and understand what you are saying. i agree too, except for the divorce part. i just never gave divorce any thought, having married young, and now that there are kids, and lives, and 13 acres, and a wonderful home in the mix, i can't really consider divorce as a viable option. not that i want to, mind you......but, again, i can relate much to the growth and changing stuff.

    proteanmix makes a good point for me as well, about keeping the relationship interesting and challenging, not boring. boredom is not good for me!! but there is a fine line to how much challenge and stretching a relationship can do in a short amount of time as well. sometimes hard to find that balance........but necessary IS the balance.

    overall, although i am poly in a mono marriage, i am very glad i am married to my ixtj. and he allows me to sow my wild oats occasionally , which is really more than i could ask for in this world of monogamous-til-death-do-us-part marital mores.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    A few thoughts:

    1. INFPs and INFJs are the most statistically likely to marry their ESTJ / ESTP opposites. Opposite marriages tend to be the most statistically likely to be unhappy, though.
    Yikes! Yea, I could see how this wouldn't work from my pov. I would only do this under extreme duress.......say a gun pointed to my head. ha.

    I see what people see as the traditional point of marriage, but I really don't see the point of this official contract binding everyone until death. The real thing would happen naturally and just continue on its own. Also, if there comes a time for it to end I think it should end. Marriage sets people up to stay together for the wrong reasons.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Rhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I understand and do the same thing. But the question is why talk about it? I never discuss problems if I know I don't want to hear anyone run their mouth off with their opinions...
    I'm not sure if this is going to satisfactorily answer your question, but whenever I have a problem it's kind of like ... having chronic back pain (yes, this is a weird metaphor, bear with me ...). The solution might be to exercise/stretch/fix my posture/etc. If my back is hurting so badly that I can barely move, though, then first I have to get someone to massage the knots out of it and/or crack it (i.e. I have to talk to someone and get some emotional support) before I can start working on the solution.

    Usually, I know which response I'm going to get from my friends when I vent--I know which friends are the back massagers and I know which ones are going to tell me that I need to do such-and-such kind of stretch to get rid of the back pain permanently. So I pick and choose who I go to according to what I need. In that respect, I think we're actually in agreement--if I know someone is going to give me advice when all I want is emotional support, then I usually won't trouble that particular person with whatever is bugging me. Likewise, if I really don't want sympathy and want a practical solution instead ... well, you get the idea!

    Of course this approach wouldn't work in a marriage. Not that I am married, but I imagine that if I was and I stopped talking to my spouse about certain problems because I didn't want to hear their opinions then that would mean the marriage was in deep trouble.

    Anyway ... I don't know if that helped, and it was kind of off-topic

    There are a lot of good posts that have been made in this thread! *goes back to munching on them*

  10. #40
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Aphrodite-gone-awry, Jennifer, and JewelChild,

    Thank you very much for your kind words. I posted what I did out of a long journey rich with a deep personal stake in such a matter, via countless hours of research, and much costly $$$ consultation with a counselor (who is a wonderful resource for me personally, my wife, and us both). If my own experiences are of assistance to those in similar shoes I am most glad to have had the opportunity to share them here.

    Peace to you all,



    -Alex

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