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  1. #101
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Internal perception leading to a negative attitude that manifest itself in behaviour. Classical psychology theory for you.
    That's the issue, though. I'm confused about how this plays out as a whole, which is why I would like to what the study really asked. In a logical kind of framework;

    Given that NFs being involved in a relationship is positively correlated to overall relationship satisfaction (in aggregate of both partners).

    Given that NF is not significantly correlated to neuroticism (or negative emotions, including amount of worry, length of worry, depth of worry - roughly paraphrasing).

    Then I conclude with high confidence that NFs do not express behaviors that are destructive in a relationship, including those covered in the OP. That is, the tangible outcome is actually positive.

    The only conjunction that I can see for everything that I've read is that the focus is different... and a focus on relationships is a positive trait in relationships. Essentially what Toonia said. This means that the orientation of the neurotic component is simply different. There are a lot of cases in life where this comes into play. You can worry about something, and not have the worry be justified in the present, but if you remove the worry, then the worry would be justified. Equilibriums like that aren't that unusual.

    (I'm still questioning the premise. I need to see the questionnaire and full results from the study, including sampling biases, before I'm going to actually build any framework around the claim. Logically, however, the only explanation I have is what Toonia said, plus the potential for equilibrium 'worry', on average.)

    (FWIW, I'm agreeing with you too... my Ti just doesn't like the framework of information here... the distinction between "less happy because they worry" and "less happy, but more successful relationships" is pretty huge!)

  2. #102
    Senior Member MonkeyGrass's Avatar
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    I think the biggest challenge in my relationships is that I have a hard time with social lies. I pick up on someone's agitation/boredom/frustration/dislike as soon as they walk in a room. I envy people who are unaware. I intuit things about my spouse that's he's not really aware of yet, hasn't fully hashed out himself, and isn't ready to talk about. And I bring it up, because I assume it's as obvious to him (intj) as it is to me. It's like constantly, inadvertently yanking down the emotional pants of others without any periods of peace.

    The older I get, the better I get at leaving people alone to come to their own emotional conclusions, even if I have clear insight. I'm also getting better at not judging myself so harshly when I sense other's negative emotions coming towards my direction.

    Interesting topic.

  3. #103
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I agree that Halla summed it up nicely.

    I would like to add that I think INFJs are look down the road people much more than other types. They often can see the logical consequences of certain courses of action, which makes them more concerned/dissatisfied etc in the present. This is not just a gut feeling, but the product of a lot of observation and analysis. Therefore, when others dismiss it or when they can't see it themselves, INFJs either harp on it more, or become frustrated and dissatisfied. Many people feel they are just being idealistic or cynical or wet blanketey but often future events do bear out what they have predicted or were concerned about. Having said that, they do have a tendancy to obsess about what could be rather than enjoying what is.

    I feel that there are some things in a mate that I could not be happy without. These are not little trivial things, but basic foundational ones. However, there is a very small percentage of the population within my age range that seems to have what I would need to be happily married. Rather than just take someone hoping that I could readjust what matters to me, I think it is kinder to all involved to stay single unless I could find someone that fills the bill. That may mean I end up alone. However, I know a lot of lonely married people, so if I sometimes feel lonely, I at least have the freedom to make my own decisions right now. I don't expect perfection in a mate, but perhaps it is that some things seem to be of greater import to INFJs than many types would feel they are.

  4. #104
    Senior Member MonkeyGrass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I agree that Halla summed it up nicely.

    I would like to add that I think INFJs are look down the road people much more than other types. They often can see the logical consequences of certain courses of action, which makes them more concerned/dissatisfied etc in the present. This is not just a gut feeling, but the product of a lot of observation and analysis. Therefore, when others dismiss it or when they can't see it themselves, INFJs either harp on it more, or become frustrated and dissatisfied. Many people feel they are just being idealistic or cynical or wet blanketey but often future events do bear out what they have predicted or were concerned about. Having said that, they do have a tendancy to obsess about what could be rather than enjoying what is.
    Absolutely, yes. This is one of my biggest flaws: after I see a relational storm coming and my spouse doesn't, I dig it my heels and insist that they feel the depth of the issue. I sometimes do it to the point that the worry-fueled strife I've caused nearly eclipses whatever concern I had expressed in the first place.

    Working hard to keep recreational companionship and lighthearted fun helps me to interrupt that cycle to some extent. Fortunately, my spouse has a touch of ADD, so I can't really stay stuck storming on any subject for too long.

  5. #105
    Senior Member amelie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyGrass View Post
    Absolutely, yes. This is one of my biggest flaws: after I see a relational storm coming and my spouse doesn't, I dig it my heels and insist that they feel the depth of the issue. I sometimes do it to the point that the worry-fueled strife I've caused nearly eclipses whatever concern I had expressed in the first place.
    I can so relate to this. I often pick up on my INTJ husband's moods before he does. It's very hard for me to let it go and let him deal with it; I want to find out what's going on with him and why he's upset and soothe him, but often it's my bringing it up and trying to get him to process it before he's ready that sets him off. He's clearly giving off all the signals of being angry or upset, but if I ask him, I do think he feels exposed.

    In terms of the more general thread topic, I do feel like I idealize relationships and that I'm always seeking for ways to make things better. It's hard to appreciate where I am in the moment, though I've gotten better at it as I've gotten older and gained more perspective. My husband has commented before that I need to just sometimes let things lie instead of going into hyper-analytical mode, which unfortunately is like telling a duck to stay out of the water. I'm working on it.

  6. #106
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amelie View Post
    My husband has commented before that I need to just sometimes let things lie instead of going into hyper-analytical mode, which unfortunately is like telling a duck to stay out of the water. I'm working on it.
    Your husband telling you this is equivalent to my wife telling me I need to sit still for a moment before I die. Seriously, we ALL do this in some capacity, but that doesn't mean we can't fine tune our default mode of action/thought. I'm working on it too...gotta' go!

  7. #107
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amelie View Post
    I can so relate to this. I often pick up on my INTJ husband's moods before he does. It's very hard for me to let it go and let him deal with it; I want to find out what's going on with him and why he's upset and soothe him, but often it's my bringing it up and trying to get him to process it before he's ready that sets him off. He's clearly giving off all the signals of being angry or upset, but if I ask him, I do think he feels exposed.

    In terms of the more general thread topic, I do feel like I idealize relationships and that I'm always seeking for ways to make things better. It's hard to appreciate where I am in the moment, though I've gotten better at it as I've gotten older and gained more perspective. My husband has commented before that I need to just sometimes let things lie instead of going into hyper-analytical mode, which unfortunately is like telling a duck to stay out of the water. I'm working on it.
    I have trouble letting things go until I can make some sense of it. Even if I can't know absolutely, just knowing there exists at least one plausible explanation is what puts it to rest. Because people's behaviors and attitudes are exceptionally complex systems and there is no way to have access to everything that shaped the system, it is often not possible to make sense of a particular behavior. I might compare it hypothetically to waking up one morning and for the entire day the sky is orange. It would make me wonder why, and I would need to investigate it until some plausible explanation emerged. The orange sky could potentially impact my reality. If I don't understand it, then it makes that potential impact more random by nature. Telling someone to just quit worrying about the sky when it has emerged as a random event can actually add stress rather than relieve it. This is how I view people. If an employer behaves in an apparently irrational way towards me, I can't let it go until i make some sense of it. It is so that I can better navigate reality. The balance comes in letting go when there is no possible means to find an explanation. I'm still working on that.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  8. #108
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Yes! That's exactly it, Toonia! And this is why it's not enough to just work out interpersonal problems internally and let it be. When people act uncharacteristically but will not somehow give us material for creating a plausible explanation, it turns our world upside down.

    Sometimes I find myself almost wanting to create enough friction that the truth can surface. I would even resort to playing 20 questions ("I've got it! Could it be this??") if they would play! I've found that STJ types just don't give many clues as to their internal workings and I remain completely baffled. It's most disconcerting and distressing.

    I know sometimes I need to just give it up, but physical distance and complete loss of hope seems to be the only effective cure for me. Have you people successfully found ways of curbing yourself of the destructive aspects of this trait? Orrr, have you hit on any great means to find explanations when they don't seem to exist?

  9. #109
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    Could you explain more the concept of mate guarding? I would really appreciate it. My husband and I are discussing compatibility and my dissatisfaction issues. The mate guarding questions seem to apply somehow.

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