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  1. #91
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Now, this depends again on the study - self selection would be different than formal testing.
    Yeah, excellent point.

    Right, I can see that. What I mean by this is that there are more positive outcomes (relative to the opposites) identified against the NF traits, as they apply to relationships. Can you think of an equivalent positive effect that the opposite has in relationships? STs, I mean.
    I'm not sure if I understand the question. Do you mean do STs have anything similar to NF idealism that could lead to relationship satisfaction?

    It's also one thing to say that idealism and the like can cause issues, it's another to say that they cause more internal disatisfaction than every other type. I completely agree that it can lead to issues... but I am skeptical that of all the traits that all types generally have, that is the most destructive one out there. (Again, if it is an internal thing, it should of shown up in other ways... but I haven't seen it. Possible to be specific to relationships? Always possible. Just... doubtful.)
    The item being tested probably matters. I can see a relationship where the bond is fairly strong, and the NF reports being happy, but because of less then ideal living conditions, the SJ partner reports being unhappy.

    Hmm....

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    A few thoughts:

    1. INFPs and INFJs are the most statistically likely to marry their ESTJ / ESTP opposites. Opposite marriages tend to be the most statistically likely to be unhappy, though.

    2. Many INF_s don't have very realistic expectations of how a relationship works in the real world. About once every week or three I see a post by a young INF_ who is setting themselves up for future relationship dissatisfaction.

    3. INF_s usually need to learn the hard way that they need to modify their values to fit into the real world (and not the other way around). 99% of young INF_s simply aren't ready to take the advice of those that have already been there - they need to experience it and go through the pain themselves. If they happen to marry before learning this lesson...

    4. Both types are prone to avoid conflict until things go "too far", at which point mending the relationship becomes an epic task. Confronting issues as soon as they occur - don't let them fester.

    5. Both types can remain in a bad relationship way too long. INF_s take pride in their ability to judge people and potential, and it takes a great big bite of humble pie to admit we were wrong, or that the situation has changed and no longer fits the ideal.

    It's an art - melding internal, dreamy idealism with the sometimes harsh realities of the real world. Embrace it, as together they are a powerful mixture. The INF_s that I've seen happiest in marriage have perfected this art.
    1. I would probably be most likely to marry an ESFP, ENFP, or ENTP. Maybe an INTP. I think I'm most attracted to men who are more extroverted than me, but still very feeling/emotional...the very idea of marrying a TJ makes me cringe. My point is that I have a very hard time picturing myself in a LTR with either of the types you listed.

    2. This may be true. But I think I'm actually slightly more realistic than some people I've met.

    3. This I will agree with.

    4. I don't necessarily avoid conflict. I mean I can, but I don't think I do as much as some.

    5. Been there, done that. However, I was just totally in love with this person. It wasn't about pride at all.

  3. #93
    THREADKILLER Prototype's Avatar
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    It's an art - melding internal, dreamy idealism with the sometimes harsh realities of the real world. Embrace it, as together they are a powerful mixture. The INF_s that I've seen happiest in marriage have perfected this art.
    ... The only way to survive through one IMO!
    ... They say that knowledge is free, and to truly acquire wisdom always comes with a price... Well then,... That will be $10, please!

  4. #94
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    (1.) I would probably be most likely to marry an ESFP, ENFP, or ENTP. Maybe an INTP. I think I'm most attracted to men who are more extroverted than me, but still very feeling/emotional...the very idea of marrying a TJ makes me cringe. My point is that I have a very hard time picturing myself in a LTR with either of the types you listed.
    Don't rule out an ESTP as a potential husband/long term SO. We are alot of fun, generous, and more flexible than you would imagine if you meet us half way and forgive our eccentricities as we (so willingly) forgive those of others. Plus, we are so damn good loooking, and modest too!!!

    Just promotoing my MBTI kin...


  5. #95
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    I'm not sure if I understand the question. Do you mean do STs have anything similar to NF idealism that could lead to relationship satisfaction?
    I mean that there are two different ways of looking at the OP. First is that NFs are prone to having miserable relationships (ie: both partners are unhappier with NFs), or that NFs are just less satisfied in relationships (regardless of if their partners are happy with them.

    What I'm saying is that from what I've read, NF is positively associated with overall happiness in a relationship - and also from what I've read, NF has next to no relationship to "general" unhappiness.

    I'm more or less asking - do you think NFs cause more relationship unhappiness than their opposites, STs? I highly doubt that is the source of the issue - meaning that if there is an issue, it's an internal perception issue more than tangible drawbacks of idealism.

  6. #96
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I'm more or less asking - do you think NFs cause more relationship unhappiness than their opposites, STs? I highly doubt that is the source of the issue - meaning that if there is an issue, it's an internal perception issue more than tangible drawbacks of idealism.
    The force of habit and the familiar can propel some relationships onward for years. It can be downright terrifying to identify when a long-term relationship is not working. It throws an entire life into uncertainty. What could possibly motivate someone to do that? I think NFs are more likely to pay attention to the dynamics and get a feel for when it isn't working. They could arguably be simply more aware of the unhappiness that is often present in relationships that others address by going golfing, shopping, or finding distractions to keep the routine going instead of facing the authenticity of the situation.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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  7. #97
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    The force of habit and the familiar can propel some relationships onward for years. It can be downright terrifying to identify when a long-term relationship is not working. It throws an entire life into uncertainty. What could possibly motivate someone to do that? I think NFs are more likely to pay attention to the dynamics and get a feel for when it isn't working. They could arguably be simply more aware of the unhappiness that is often present in relationships that others address by going golfing, shopping, or finding distractions to keep the routine going instead of facing the authenticity of the situation.
    Sure, I guess that's another explanation. Still ends up as amounting to an internal perception, rather than a tangible influence...

  8. #98
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I mean that there are two different ways of looking at the OP. First is that NFs are prone to having miserable relationships (ie: both partners are unhappier with NFs), or that NFs are just less satisfied in relationships (regardless of if their partners are happy with them.
    I definitely think it's the latter, which is still an important thing for us INFs to realize. We can use that knowledge for personal growth.

    Thank you, though, for putting a scientific perspective to all this. I'd also hate for any INFs to think it's their idealism that's the problem, considering it may be their greatest gift.

    I'm more or less asking - do you think NFs cause more relationship unhappiness than their opposites, STs? I highly doubt that is the source of the issue - meaning that if there is an issue, it's an internal perception issue more than tangible drawbacks of idealism.
    Well, remember it's INFs that we are referring to here - so the NF vs ST comparison may be a bit broad.

    NFs vs STs - as a rule, I'd say NFs don't cause more relationship unhappiness. This is especially true with the STJs, which often show their love in concrete ways but can be verbally rough, something that many "F" partners have a hard time dealing with.

  9. #99
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    Well, remember it's INFs that we are referring to here - so the NF vs ST comparison may be a bit broad.
    Yup, I dropped the I off because it is generally correlated to being 'unhappy'... or to be more accurate, Es associate very strongly against positive emotions in general, with Is having a lack of them. That's bad both for tangible relationship influences, as well as perception of them. All Is are in that situation, though.

  10. #100
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Sure, I guess that's another explanation. Still ends up as amounting to an internal perception, rather than a tangible influence...
    Internal perception leading to a negative attitude that manifest itself in behaviour. Classical psychology theory for you.

    The INFxs dream rather strongly of what a relationship should be like. Dream as in fantasize. This leads to often unrealistic expectations. And when they see that reality doesn't reflect ideal... they're likely to do one of two things: blame themselves for "messing up" (INFJ), attempt to convince themselves that everything is going okay (INFP).

    INFJs try to fix the problem. The impossible task of making reality into the ideal relationship. They beat themselves up for every little mishap, not realizing the negativity they're projecting onto themselves is increasing the friction within the relationship. Their partners sense the INFJ trying to correct everything... dissatisfaction occurs when they feel the INFJ think the relationship is "not good enough". This is not just imagined.

    INFPs try to convince themselves that things are close enough to their expectation, yet negative emotions leaks through. In this case it is unvoiced dissatisfaction. Their partners ask what's wrong, the INFP say nothing's wrong. Words that don't match actions lead to frustration.

    Of course these are two extremely stereotypical responses. I don't really see STs engaging in this sort of behaviour though.
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