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[ENFJ] Frustrated ENFJ

Udog

Seriously Delirious
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There *is* no upshot. There really really isn't.

You will always be too intense. Too isolated. Too "much". Too solitary. You're none of the ESFJ good things, you're none of the INFJ good things.

Enjoy your shock collar.

*speaks in a quiet voice as to not set off shock collar*

Pink, it's not fair to compare the frustrated ENFJ to good ESFJ or INFJ traits. Frustrated INFJs and ESFJs aren't pleasant to be around either. ESFJs for likely similar reasons as the ENFJ, and well, the INFJ for completely different reasons (despite the closeness in type).

I can't and won't argue against any of the points you made... but, I think the intensity of the negatives is the price that must be paid for the incredible positives that ENFJs bring in happier times.

Would it be nice to be able to choose what traits we have, and what prices we are willing to pay for them? Hell yeah! *shock collar buzzes Udog* But, that's not how it works out.

Life gives ENFJs incredible gifts to make our world better. They deserve some leeway during the unpleasant times, methinks.
 

Skyward

Badoom~
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*speaks in a quiet voice as to not set off shock collar*

Pink, it's not fair to compare the frustrated ENFJ to good ESFJ or INFJ traits. Frustrated INFJs and ESFJs aren't pleasant to be around either. ESFJs for likely similar reasons as the ENFJ, and well, the INFJ for completely different reasons (despite the closeness in type).

I can't and won't argue against any of the points you made... but, I think the intensity of the negatives is the price that must be paid for the incredible positives that ENFJs bring in happier times.

Would it be nice to be able to choose what traits we have, and what prices we are willing to pay for them? Hell yeah! *shock collar buzzes Udog* But, that's not how it works out.

Life gives ENFJs incredible gifts to make our world better. They deserve some leeway during the unpleasant times, methinks.

:yes:
 

OrangeAppled

Sugar Hiccup
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Intense people are the BEST! That's part of why I like ENFJs. :cheese:
 

The Grand Chameleon

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So you're pink; apparently, someone on this forum thinks I've either stemmed from your stem cells, or actually is you under the guise of another SN. Though we drink the same wine, we come from different grapes...or something mysterious to that effect.

What unduly treatment has been dished in your direction to the point of a forum rant?

Whatever the problem may be, I have the solution: as an ENFJ, you are probably the holder of many a secret, many a trust. And as a result, many a favor. Use these to your advantage. Take revenge against those that seek to destroy what you hold dear.

Of course, I'm kidding (only if you are). I think you'll find the solution to your predicament in your own time, on your own terms. To let the world know there exists a problem is our first step to coping. But that's all the world will ever know, right?
 

Lauren Ashley

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Whatever the problem may be, I have the solution: as an ENFJ, you are probably the holder of many a secret, many a trust. And as a result, many a favor. Use these to your advantage. Take revenge against those that seek to destroy what you hold dear.

I disagree with this. ENFJs much more than any type IMO, must guard against vengeful behavior. When feeling insecure it's fairly easy for them to work their Fe coupled with Ni to pull strings behind the scenes and cause confusion. Whenever I have an issue with an ENFJ, such deceptive behavior is usually the main cause of it. I don't think your advice would be the solution to frustration; it would be the cause of more frustration once others realize what's going on and begin to distrust/dislike the ENFJ.
 

proteanmix

Plumage and Moult
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So you're pink; apparently, someone on this forum thinks I've either stemmed from your stem cells, or actually is you under the guise of another SN. Though we drink the same wine, we come from different grapes...or something mysterious to that effect.

What unduly treatment has been dished in your direction to the point of a forum rant?

Hey, you're a new ENFJ. Welcome to the forums. Love the name because it reminds me of my own! I think you hit up some interesting points in this post.

You're The Grand Chameleon and I'm proteanmix and we have PinkPiranha. I see similarities in all these names. Udog, kind of already hit upon it so I'm just going to continue. I think the choice of usernames many people choose expresses some duality of multifaceted-ness of their personality. You and I chose to emphasize mutability and pink choose to pair a soft (pink) and hard (piranha) dichotomy. Is there something extra to the ENFJ names? Who knows, I could be pulling this out of my ass. INFPs seem to like cats and it doesn't seem completely random or unrelated

ENFJs are called Teachers and Pedagogues and Life Coaches and all those other pretty euphemistic ways of saying that we have some sort of specialty or ability in modifying the behavior of others in some way. That ability does not at all mean that it will get expressed in a positive, beneficial, or benevolent way. Nor does it say or even make the claim to say how exactly this behavior modification occurs. Fe tries or attempts to modify behavior, it's just a natural byproduct of an extroverted judging function. It tries to order the external world. Realistically, how does that come about most of the time? Break down what it takes to move what could be to what is. You have to move through resistance, doubt, pessimism, stonewalling, resentment. In some ways, I think it's easier to dwell in what could be because there is no heavy lifting involved in just imagining and dreaming of perfection, there is no doing. The problems arise when you start to make dreams a reality. It kind of reminds me of plate tectonics...the friction that occurs between two equally strong forces rubbing against each other and the activity that results from that.

ENFJs allegedly see the potential in others. Maybe so, maybe no. What if the person doesn't see the potential in themselves and aren't receptive? What if the ENFJ is mistaken in what they perceive? What if the potential is there, but the person is content as they are? What if the ENFJ just can't let it be and accept? What are the push/pull factors that necessitate change? "I believe in you, do you believe in you!" and other such platitudes. I don't know, we hear so often you can't change another person, and yet we have this theoretical personality type that majors and specializes in changing other people. Smells like a setup to me. You have a person who feels like they're not fulfilling their own purpose and are constantly squelching themselves until they find the methods and means to express without incinerating the other person. Personally, since I know I'm not very good at just accepting and letting it be I've dealt with myself by remaining uninvolved. Just don't get in it to begin with, which isn't really satisfying but it saves a lot of trouble.

When people ingest those type descriptions and fail to see the fullness (positive and negative) of the person behind the description then we have threads like these written by Pink about not living up to a what? A 500 word essay on what you're supposed to be which is essentially perfect? Fuck that. Why even compare yourself, a real 3-D vital human being to some words on a paper? These words on the paper know nothing about you, your sorrows, your ambitions, your experiences.

Whatever the problem may be, I have the solution: as an ENFJ, you are probably the holder of many a secret, many a trust. And as a result, many a favor. Use these to your advantage. Take revenge against those that seek to destroy what you hold dear.

Of course, I'm kidding (only if you are). I think you'll find the solution to your predicament in your own time, on your own terms. To let the world know there exists a problem is our first step to coping. But that's all the world will ever know, right?

Now about that shock collar. Wikipedia tells me shock collars:
...used to describe a family of electronic training collars which are used to induce an electrical charge at varying degrees of intensity and duration...Successful operation and usage of electronic collars require the guidance of a professional who specializes in these types of devices. As with any dog training tool, improper usage, abuse of technology, and negligence can create undesirable results.

Anytime you get into deep behavioral psychology, you've got to make sure your hands are totally clean. You've really got to make sure your motives stem from a pure place because it can turn insidious very quickly. I think a lot of ENFJs recognize they may have some ability in this area and they either get really scared of it or start power tripping. I don't know very many ENFJs personally so I'm just guessing. I also think that when people realize you have this person who can move people or an individual along a certain path, not just talk about it but be about it as well, the misgivings towards such a person are not totally misplaced. The person that can do this needs to have a very strong sense of right and wrong, fairness, and equality and get checked fairly frequently if there is a concern they can't self-regulate, basically harness and focus the ability in a positive way.

But that doesn't mean this person should be squelched, constantly be called manipulative, or have people run away from them because it is very hurtful and damaging to self-esteem when you have a natural heart towards people. I think that with such a person, they really need to have a good mentor over them to help train them in such a way that they don't misuse and abuse a natural talent.
 

Domino

ENFJ In Chains
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I want to thank you all for your input. It's been reflective.

To try to answer in some paraphrase - and I will do my best to be coherent - I tend to get treated like I'm burning out eyes and scalding hands, like there's something inherently wrong with me. I got "handled" a lot growing up by adults, and when I started to reach dating age, I got a whole other level of "control" flung at me from guys who apparently either wanted to throw a saddle on my back or make me feel insecure by criticizing my personality. There's so many layers to this, I wish I could articulate it, but I can't. The rabbit hole just goes too far down.

This is not everyone's treatment of me, and the people closest to me seem to have learned to take me in stride, but I think ultimately, when I don't make the connection in typical fashion, I get embarrassed and recoil. Like meeting a family member's much-talked-about girlfriend. She seems very nice and interesting, and very nervous about meeting some of us, so I was trying to be accommodating, but apparently I only managed to reinforce my intensity. I did this TWICE. My enfp sister to the rescue to set things back on the rails. If I'm left to my devices, I wind up sounding like my INFJ dad and the two of us together can be a mind-bender as neither of us seems entirely aware of social conventions until we step on them.

I didn't mean to scare that woman! :( I was really mortified. Even the people who love me and have known me most of my life say that I'm like a grinning T- Rex, and they say it with a laugh. It's an apt description, I get it. But I'm also really embarrassed by it sometimes because I'm unaware of it. Apparently I could read aloud the panel on a cereal box and sound intense. You're all correct - all types have their downfall. I guess I just see mine as something I should control, but can't, or as something I shouldn't have to control because I'm not irrational, crazy or arbitrary.

I know I'm not the only ENFJ who feels as if they get doused with water with some frequency. I remember having a conversation with Protean ages ago -- she and I were chafed by the whole "just calm down" statement even when we aren't upset.
 

Skyward

Badoom~
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I want to thank you all for your input. It's been reflective.

To try to answer in some paraphrase - and I will do my best to be coherent - I tend to get treated like I'm burning out eyes and scalding hands, like there's something inherently wrong with me. I got "handled" a lot growing up by adults, and when I started to reach dating age, I got a whole other level of "control" flung at me from guys who apparently either wanted to throw a saddle on my back or make me feel insecure by criticizing my personality. There's so many layers to this, I wish I could articulate it, but I can't. The rabbit hole just goes too far down.

This is not everyone's treatment of me, and the people closest to me seem to have learned to take me in stride, but I think ultimately, when I don't make the connection in typical fashion, I get embarrassed and recoil. Like meeting a family member's much-talked-about girlfriend. She seems very nice and interesting, and very nervous about meeting some of us, so I was trying to be accommodating, but apparently I only managed to reinforce my intensity. I did this TWICE. My enfp sister to the rescue to set things back on the rails. If I'm left to my devices, I wind up sounding like my INFJ dad and the two of us together can be a mind-bender as neither of us seems entirely aware of social conventions until we step on them.

I didn't mean to scare that woman! :( I was really mortified. Even the people who love me and have known me most of my life say that I'm like a grinning T- Rex, and they say it with a laugh. It's an apt description, I get it. But I'm also really embarrassed by it sometimes because I'm unaware of it. Apparently I could read aloud the panel on a cereal box and sound intense. You're all correct - all types have their downfall. I guess I just see mine as something I should control, but can't, or as something I shouldn't have to control because I'm not irrational, crazy or arbitrary.

I know I'm not the only ENFJ who feels as if they get doused with water with some frequency. I remember having a conversation with Protean ages ago -- she and I were chafed by the whole "just calm down" statement even when we aren't upset.

An ENFJ I know has managed to use the intensity in performing arts. She channels it into her operatic voice onstage and really moved the crowd. This is when people see the good side of the intensity. If they see this first (First impressions and all that) they tend to see the more cumbersome side of intensity with a better light. Something like: "She manages it, it seems; it's awkward in a more casual setting, but I guess it's something amazing crowd-movers have to deal with. She belongs on Broadway."

In a nutshell it seems to me that if an ENFJ isn't given a place to work her innate skills for good, she seems to get bogged down by all the bad that it works when it doesn't get a place to move. Kind of like a big dog in a small apartment, or the cliche 'Big fish in a small pond.'
 

BlackCat

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Speaking from experience, yes you guys are intense.

A perfect example is none other than my mom... She always sounds like she's either mad at something or way too excited, or just too something. It can be taxing, but after having lived with her I know that this really isn't the case. That was my dad's (INTP) complaint, that she was just overwhelming to him.

I am guilty of the "just calm down" statement, sometimes when I'm mentally exhausted or I've just been out socializing (making me mentally exhausted) I have to tell my mom to settle down, because I just can't handle it in that given moment. Too much of her will literally give me a headache even when I was totally energized before talking to her, it only takes about ~7 minutes. But I think my mom talks an inhuman amount, she will talk and talk and talk about a topic, and then just suddenly switch topics. It's annoying after having thought and thought about a good response, and even then I can't really put anything in because she just keeps talking.

I don't know, I want to help you, but I don't really know how. I guess I can just continue to give my observation of things to try to give you a viewpoint from the other side. I'm not trying to accuse you of anything, since I don't know you, but maybe you can relate to the things I've said and will say.

Sometimes when people are very nice and accommodating it can seem intimidating, because then it can seem like to me that messing up around them would be the worst thing in the world. This may be because it seems like the person has absolute control of the mood in the room, if they get angry then the mood of the room will get awkward or bad, or something to that effect. When people are very nice I'm just on edge, since I want to do the same to them, but at the same time I feel pressured to not mess up. Some people may not know how to return the accommodation to you and then feel intimidated.

This really seems to add up to something more in my mind, but I can't really formulate it in words just yet...
 

Domino

ENFJ In Chains
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You have a point, Sky. I'm chewing the furniture and licking my fur off for lack of decent employment of myself.

I do a lot of writing.

Cat - this is exactly what I mean, the "you're overwhelming" thing. It simply doesn't seem fair that Introverts get to say this to us because I've been overrun by Introverts too, ones that are amazingly intense and concentrated, and yet they seem to avoid the label somehow. Even my perfectly pleasant ENFP sister gets the "simmer down" comment and I know for a fact that she in no way deserves it. I hate it when people try to stifle her.

No, I resent it. The inference that it's MY fault that someone is feeling overwhelmed when I'm hardly cracking the throttle. I get simultaneously embarrassed and angry. It's a form of rejection.
 

proteanmix

Plumage and Moult
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I know I'm not the only ENFJ who feels as if they get doused with water with some frequency. I remember having a conversation with Protean ages ago -- she and I were chafed by the whole "just calm down" statement even when we aren't upset.

The Progressive Auto insurance girl amuses me to no end! :laugh:
She's bubbly and beaming, high-volume, with a flip of dark hair and a face like a lollipop. She irks as she endears, bemuses as she bewitches. She's a bundle of energetic contradictions, bursting here, retracting there. Her expressions blink and change like a neon sign. Her eyes are popping globes. And she just sold you a bunch of car insurance.

The thing about her is she always starts off OK, people are beguiled and they're with her. But then she really gets into it, and she's one inch into being in it, but she's really enjoying herself and then she gets The Look. And then she's awkward, but she was just enjoying herself. Even though the commercials are just for fun, I think they're actually pretty good examples of when people feel like ENFJs may be going into the CALM DOWN mode. But once again, I don't the she ever felt out of control she's just being enthusiastic. I haven't tried to type this character I think it's a good example of when the Freakout begins.

[YOUTUBE="Z068uWxOfz0"]checkout[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE="zc2H84fO7DQ"]smells like freedom[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE="Zr7N4t91qMs"]part-ay![/YOUTUBE]
 

BlackCat

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Cat - this is exactly what I mean, the "you're overwhelming" thing. It simply doesn't seem fair that Introverts get to say this to us because I've been overrun by Introverts too, ones that are amazingly intense and concentrated, and yet they seem to avoid the label somehow. Even my perfectly pleasant ENFP sister gets the "simmer down" comment and I know for a fact that she in no way deserves it. I hate it when people try to stifle her.

No, I resent it. The inference that it's MY fault that someone is feeling overwhelmed when I'm hardly cracking the throttle. I get simultaneously embarrassed and angry. It's a form of rejection.

I can definitely see how you resent it... It sounds very frustrating.

By the way this has also helped me see the issue "from the other side", since before coming here I had no idea why my mom was the way she was, or why we had these conflicts, or why all of this happened. She also calls it "rejection", that exact word, when I say that I can't handle her for too long (she and I have extensively talked out our issues, this wasn't just a mean comment I threw out there).

I think with the intense introverts thing though it's a different kind of intensity. Maybe that's why they avoid the tag. An analogy for this you could say would be someone who is totally openly racist, and someone who only thinks racist thoughts. They are both racist, yet the person who is open about it is labeled a "racist" person.

Again I wish I knew how to help you. :hug:
 

Domino

ENFJ In Chains
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lol @ the racist analogy. That's both strange and somehow workable. *laughs* TY for your honesty and your thoughts on the matter.

My ENTJ bff Athena started dating an extroverted senser because she's constantly being accused of being too much. He doesn't seem to be bothered by it. She called me recently frustrated out of her mind because the powerful vibe of her nature and intelligence seems to isolate her no matter how hard she tries to be conciliatory or "toned down".

Not only does she feel as if she's failed to be pleasing to those she wishes to please, she gets upset because she's just being Athena and somehow it's a strike against her. Built-in failure?? What is that - some kind of nasty joke?
 

Lauren Ashley

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Who are these weaklings complaining about intense behavior? Screw them, befriend me! I've also been accused of intense behavior, but not in the same way you have.
 

Domino

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Lauren - I was talking to BlackCat aside, and I mentioned that I have a passel of VERY intense INFJ friends. They're practically shaking sometimes they get so jacked up about things - good and bad. I relate very very strongly to their passion. I personally admire it and don't find it off-putting in the least. Athena's bf, spotting an email from me, smiled and said, "Is that the angry girl?" and Athena laughed and laughed, and said, "She's not angry!! She's in my berserker Viking boat! C'mon!"

You can be our friend!! :hug: lol Athena and I (and Jaye too) are happy to have you! :D Maybe we could try cooking marshmallows with our laser eyes.
 

Lauren Ashley

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Lauren - I was talking to BlackCat aside, and I mentioned that I have a passel of VERY intense INFJ friends. They're practically shaking sometimes they get so jacked up about things - good and bad. I relate very very strongly to their passion. I personally admire it and don't find it off-putting in the least.
I can relate to that. Good to know someone doesn't find this type of passion unnecessary and absurd.

You can be our friend!! :hug: lol Athena and I (and Jaye too) are happy to have you! :D Maybe we could try cooking marshmallows with our laser eyes.
Yay! Jaye is more awesome than awesome. I love spunky ENxPs. I gravitate towards them because we always have fun together.
 

Domino

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Sis is quite fond on INFJs herself. lol :D This should be fun. You and Jaye can have ENFP-INFJ fun-E timez whilst Athena and I raid a village before dinner.
 

heart

heart on fire
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You have a point, Sky. I'm chewing the furniture and licking my fur off for lack of decent employment of myself.

I do a lot of writing.

Cat - this is exactly what I mean, the "you're overwhelming" thing. It simply doesn't seem fair that Introverts get to say this to us because I've been overrun by Introverts too, ones that are amazingly intense and concentrated, and yet they seem to avoid the label somehow. Even my perfectly pleasant ENFP sister gets the "simmer down" comment and I know for a fact that she in no way deserves it. I hate it when people try to stifle her.

No, I resent it. The inference that it's MY fault that someone is feeling overwhelmed when I'm hardly cracking the throttle. I get simultaneously embarrassed and angry. It's a form of rejection.

You ever read much about emotional vampirism? The idea that there are some people who have allowed the world/otherpeople/ self to kill or murder the vital, alive, feeling part of themselves and then they go on to try and douse/kill the vital part of others?

Sounds faniciful, until one starts looking at people in the world around them.

And well, you know how scary intense I can be...I often hold myself back from others as well and I've had hurtful comments made by people close to me about being too intense...my mother being one. It is just being introverted I just don't have the energy to be that way very much of the time externally, it all stays inside, that's how introverts avoid the label to some degree but I can't imagine too many dominant feelers who don't have their intense sides and who don't at times receive flack for it.
 

Lauren Ashley

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Sis is quite fond on INFJs herself. lol :D This should be fun. You and Jaye can have ENFP-INFJ fun-E timez whilst Athena and I raid a village before dinner.

An ENTJ-ENFJ duo? Why haven't you taken over the world yet? I assume that must still be in the works.
 

MacGuffin

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There is nothing wrong with intensity, as long as you can properly direct it.
 
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