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Thread: Frustrated ENFJ

  1. #21
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    There *is* no upshot. There really really isn't.

    You will always be too intense. Too isolated. Too "much". Too solitary. You're none of the ESFJ good things, you're none of the INFJ good things.

    Enjoy your shock collar.
    *speaks in a quiet voice as to not set off shock collar*

    Pink, it's not fair to compare the frustrated ENFJ to good ESFJ or INFJ traits. Frustrated INFJs and ESFJs aren't pleasant to be around either. ESFJs for likely similar reasons as the ENFJ, and well, the INFJ for completely different reasons (despite the closeness in type).

    I can't and won't argue against any of the points you made... but, I think the intensity of the negatives is the price that must be paid for the incredible positives that ENFJs bring in happier times.

    Would it be nice to be able to choose what traits we have, and what prices we are willing to pay for them? Hell yeah! *shock collar buzzes Udog* But, that's not how it works out.

    Life gives ENFJs incredible gifts to make our world better. They deserve some leeway during the unpleasant times, methinks.

  2. #22
    Badoom~ Skyward's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    *speaks in a quiet voice as to not set off shock collar*

    Pink, it's not fair to compare the frustrated ENFJ to good ESFJ or INFJ traits. Frustrated INFJs and ESFJs aren't pleasant to be around either. ESFJs for likely similar reasons as the ENFJ, and well, the INFJ for completely different reasons (despite the closeness in type).

    I can't and won't argue against any of the points you made... but, I think the intensity of the negatives is the price that must be paid for the incredible positives that ENFJs bring in happier times.

    Would it be nice to be able to choose what traits we have, and what prices we are willing to pay for them? Hell yeah! *shock collar buzzes Udog* But, that's not how it works out.

    Life gives ENFJs incredible gifts to make our world better. They deserve some leeway during the unpleasant times, methinks.
    'Imperfection is beauty, madness is genius and its better to be absolutely ridiculous than absolutely boring.' - Marilyn Monroe

    This is who I am, escapist, paradise-seeker.
    -Nightwish

    Anthropology Major out of Hamline University. St. Paul, Minnesota.

  3. #23
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Intense people are the BEST! That's part of why I like ENFJs.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  4. #24
    Senior Member The Grand Chameleon's Avatar
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    So you're pink; apparently, someone on this forum thinks I've either stemmed from your stem cells, or actually is you under the guise of another SN. Though we drink the same wine, we come from different grapes...or something mysterious to that effect.

    What unduly treatment has been dished in your direction to the point of a forum rant?

    Whatever the problem may be, I have the solution: as an ENFJ, you are probably the holder of many a secret, many a trust. And as a result, many a favor. Use these to your advantage. Take revenge against those that seek to destroy what you hold dear.

    Of course, I'm kidding (only if you are). I think you'll find the solution to your predicament in your own time, on your own terms. To let the world know there exists a problem is our first step to coping. But that's all the world will ever know, right?
    "In the game of chess, you can never let your opponent see your pieces."

  5. #25
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Grand Chameleon View Post
    Whatever the problem may be, I have the solution: as an ENFJ, you are probably the holder of many a secret, many a trust. And as a result, many a favor. Use these to your advantage. Take revenge against those that seek to destroy what you hold dear.
    I disagree with this. ENFJs much more than any type IMO, must guard against vengeful behavior. When feeling insecure it's fairly easy for them to work their Fe coupled with Ni to pull strings behind the scenes and cause confusion. Whenever I have an issue with an ENFJ, such deceptive behavior is usually the main cause of it. I don't think your advice would be the solution to frustration; it would be the cause of more frustration once others realize what's going on and begin to distrust/dislike the ENFJ.

  6. #26
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Grand Chameleon View Post
    So you're pink; apparently, someone on this forum thinks I've either stemmed from your stem cells, or actually is you under the guise of another SN. Though we drink the same wine, we come from different grapes...or something mysterious to that effect.

    What unduly treatment has been dished in your direction to the point of a forum rant?
    Hey, you're a new ENFJ. Welcome to the forums. Love the name because it reminds me of my own! I think you hit up some interesting points in this post.

    You're The Grand Chameleon and I'm proteanmix and we have PinkPiranha. I see similarities in all these names. Udog, kind of already hit upon it so I'm just going to continue. I think the choice of usernames many people choose expresses some duality of multifaceted-ness of their personality. You and I chose to emphasize mutability and pink choose to pair a soft (pink) and hard (piranha) dichotomy. Is there something extra to the ENFJ names? Who knows, I could be pulling this out of my ass. INFPs seem to like cats and it doesn't seem completely random or unrelated

    ENFJs are called Teachers and Pedagogues and Life Coaches and all those other pretty euphemistic ways of saying that we have some sort of specialty or ability in modifying the behavior of others in some way. That ability does not at all mean that it will get expressed in a positive, beneficial, or benevolent way. Nor does it say or even make the claim to say how exactly this behavior modification occurs. Fe tries or attempts to modify behavior, it's just a natural byproduct of an extroverted judging function. It tries to order the external world. Realistically, how does that come about most of the time? Break down what it takes to move what could be to what is. You have to move through resistance, doubt, pessimism, stonewalling, resentment. In some ways, I think it's easier to dwell in what could be because there is no heavy lifting involved in just imagining and dreaming of perfection, there is no doing. The problems arise when you start to make dreams a reality. It kind of reminds me of plate tectonics...the friction that occurs between two equally strong forces rubbing against each other and the activity that results from that.

    ENFJs allegedly see the potential in others. Maybe so, maybe no. What if the person doesn't see the potential in themselves and aren't receptive? What if the ENFJ is mistaken in what they perceive? What if the potential is there, but the person is content as they are? What if the ENFJ just can't let it be and accept? What are the push/pull factors that necessitate change? "I believe in you, do you believe in you!" and other such platitudes. I don't know, we hear so often you can't change another person, and yet we have this theoretical personality type that majors and specializes in changing other people. Smells like a setup to me. You have a person who feels like they're not fulfilling their own purpose and are constantly squelching themselves until they find the methods and means to express without incinerating the other person. Personally, since I know I'm not very good at just accepting and letting it be I've dealt with myself by remaining uninvolved. Just don't get in it to begin with, which isn't really satisfying but it saves a lot of trouble.

    When people ingest those type descriptions and fail to see the fullness (positive and negative) of the person behind the description then we have threads like these written by Pink about not living up to a what? A 500 word essay on what you're supposed to be which is essentially perfect? Fuck that. Why even compare yourself, a real 3-D vital human being to some words on a paper? These words on the paper know nothing about you, your sorrows, your ambitions, your experiences.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Grand Chameleon View Post
    Whatever the problem may be, I have the solution: as an ENFJ, you are probably the holder of many a secret, many a trust. And as a result, many a favor. Use these to your advantage. Take revenge against those that seek to destroy what you hold dear.

    Of course, I'm kidding (only if you are). I think you'll find the solution to your predicament in your own time, on your own terms. To let the world know there exists a problem is our first step to coping. But that's all the world will ever know, right?
    Now about that shock collar. Wikipedia tells me shock collars:
    ...used to describe a family of electronic training collars which are used to induce an electrical charge at varying degrees of intensity and duration...Successful operation and usage of electronic collars require the guidance of a professional who specializes in these types of devices. As with any dog training tool, improper usage, abuse of technology, and negligence can create undesirable results.
    Anytime you get into deep behavioral psychology, you've got to make sure your hands are totally clean. You've really got to make sure your motives stem from a pure place because it can turn insidious very quickly. I think a lot of ENFJs recognize they may have some ability in this area and they either get really scared of it or start power tripping. I don't know very many ENFJs personally so I'm just guessing. I also think that when people realize you have this person who can move people or an individual along a certain path, not just talk about it but be about it as well, the misgivings towards such a person are not totally misplaced. The person that can do this needs to have a very strong sense of right and wrong, fairness, and equality and get checked fairly frequently if there is a concern they can't self-regulate, basically harness and focus the ability in a positive way.

    But that doesn't mean this person should be squelched, constantly be called manipulative, or have people run away from them because it is very hurtful and damaging to self-esteem when you have a natural heart towards people. I think that with such a person, they really need to have a good mentor over them to help train them in such a way that they don't misuse and abuse a natural talent.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  7. #27
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    I want to thank you all for your input. It's been reflective.

    To try to answer in some paraphrase - and I will do my best to be coherent - I tend to get treated like I'm burning out eyes and scalding hands, like there's something inherently wrong with me. I got "handled" a lot growing up by adults, and when I started to reach dating age, I got a whole other level of "control" flung at me from guys who apparently either wanted to throw a saddle on my back or make me feel insecure by criticizing my personality. There's so many layers to this, I wish I could articulate it, but I can't. The rabbit hole just goes too far down.

    This is not everyone's treatment of me, and the people closest to me seem to have learned to take me in stride, but I think ultimately, when I don't make the connection in typical fashion, I get embarrassed and recoil. Like meeting a family member's much-talked-about girlfriend. She seems very nice and interesting, and very nervous about meeting some of us, so I was trying to be accommodating, but apparently I only managed to reinforce my intensity. I did this TWICE. My enfp sister to the rescue to set things back on the rails. If I'm left to my devices, I wind up sounding like my INFJ dad and the two of us together can be a mind-bender as neither of us seems entirely aware of social conventions until we step on them.

    I didn't mean to scare that woman! I was really mortified. Even the people who love me and have known me most of my life say that I'm like a grinning T- Rex, and they say it with a laugh. It's an apt description, I get it. But I'm also really embarrassed by it sometimes because I'm unaware of it. Apparently I could read aloud the panel on a cereal box and sound intense. You're all correct - all types have their downfall. I guess I just see mine as something I should control, but can't, or as something I shouldn't have to control because I'm not irrational, crazy or arbitrary.

    I know I'm not the only ENFJ who feels as if they get doused with water with some frequency. I remember having a conversation with Protean ages ago -- she and I were chafed by the whole "just calm down" statement even when we aren't upset.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
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    AIS Holland code
    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  8. #28
    Badoom~ Skyward's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    I want to thank you all for your input. It's been reflective.

    To try to answer in some paraphrase - and I will do my best to be coherent - I tend to get treated like I'm burning out eyes and scalding hands, like there's something inherently wrong with me. I got "handled" a lot growing up by adults, and when I started to reach dating age, I got a whole other level of "control" flung at me from guys who apparently either wanted to throw a saddle on my back or make me feel insecure by criticizing my personality. There's so many layers to this, I wish I could articulate it, but I can't. The rabbit hole just goes too far down.

    This is not everyone's treatment of me, and the people closest to me seem to have learned to take me in stride, but I think ultimately, when I don't make the connection in typical fashion, I get embarrassed and recoil. Like meeting a family member's much-talked-about girlfriend. She seems very nice and interesting, and very nervous about meeting some of us, so I was trying to be accommodating, but apparently I only managed to reinforce my intensity. I did this TWICE. My enfp sister to the rescue to set things back on the rails. If I'm left to my devices, I wind up sounding like my INFJ dad and the two of us together can be a mind-bender as neither of us seems entirely aware of social conventions until we step on them.

    I didn't mean to scare that woman! I was really mortified. Even the people who love me and have known me most of my life say that I'm like a grinning T- Rex, and they say it with a laugh. It's an apt description, I get it. But I'm also really embarrassed by it sometimes because I'm unaware of it. Apparently I could read aloud the panel on a cereal box and sound intense. You're all correct - all types have their downfall. I guess I just see mine as something I should control, but can't, or as something I shouldn't have to control because I'm not irrational, crazy or arbitrary.

    I know I'm not the only ENFJ who feels as if they get doused with water with some frequency. I remember having a conversation with Protean ages ago -- she and I were chafed by the whole "just calm down" statement even when we aren't upset.
    An ENFJ I know has managed to use the intensity in performing arts. She channels it into her operatic voice onstage and really moved the crowd. This is when people see the good side of the intensity. If they see this first (First impressions and all that) they tend to see the more cumbersome side of intensity with a better light. Something like: "She manages it, it seems; it's awkward in a more casual setting, but I guess it's something amazing crowd-movers have to deal with. She belongs on Broadway."

    In a nutshell it seems to me that if an ENFJ isn't given a place to work her innate skills for good, she seems to get bogged down by all the bad that it works when it doesn't get a place to move. Kind of like a big dog in a small apartment, or the cliche 'Big fish in a small pond.'
    'Imperfection is beauty, madness is genius and its better to be absolutely ridiculous than absolutely boring.' - Marilyn Monroe

    This is who I am, escapist, paradise-seeker.
    -Nightwish

    Anthropology Major out of Hamline University. St. Paul, Minnesota.

  9. #29
    Magical BlackCat's Avatar
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    Speaking from experience, yes you guys are intense.

    A perfect example is none other than my mom... She always sounds like she's either mad at something or way too excited, or just too something. It can be taxing, but after having lived with her I know that this really isn't the case. That was my dad's (INTP) complaint, that she was just overwhelming to him.

    I am guilty of the "just calm down" statement, sometimes when I'm mentally exhausted or I've just been out socializing (making me mentally exhausted) I have to tell my mom to settle down, because I just can't handle it in that given moment. Too much of her will literally give me a headache even when I was totally energized before talking to her, it only takes about ~7 minutes. But I think my mom talks an inhuman amount, she will talk and talk and talk about a topic, and then just suddenly switch topics. It's annoying after having thought and thought about a good response, and even then I can't really put anything in because she just keeps talking.

    I don't know, I want to help you, but I don't really know how. I guess I can just continue to give my observation of things to try to give you a viewpoint from the other side. I'm not trying to accuse you of anything, since I don't know you, but maybe you can relate to the things I've said and will say.

    Sometimes when people are very nice and accommodating it can seem intimidating, because then it can seem like to me that messing up around them would be the worst thing in the world. This may be because it seems like the person has absolute control of the mood in the room, if they get angry then the mood of the room will get awkward or bad, or something to that effect. When people are very nice I'm just on edge, since I want to do the same to them, but at the same time I feel pressured to not mess up. Some people may not know how to return the accommodation to you and then feel intimidated.

    This really seems to add up to something more in my mind, but I can't really formulate it in words just yet...
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

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  10. #30
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    You have a point, Sky. I'm chewing the furniture and licking my fur off for lack of decent employment of myself.

    I do a lot of writing.

    Cat - this is exactly what I mean, the "you're overwhelming" thing. It simply doesn't seem fair that Introverts get to say this to us because I've been overrun by Introverts too, ones that are amazingly intense and concentrated, and yet they seem to avoid the label somehow. Even my perfectly pleasant ENFP sister gets the "simmer down" comment and I know for a fact that she in no way deserves it. I hate it when people try to stifle her.

    No, I resent it. The inference that it's MY fault that someone is feeling overwhelmed when I'm hardly cracking the throttle. I get simultaneously embarrassed and angry. It's a form of rejection.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
    Neutral Good
    EII-Fi subtype, Ethical/Empath, Delta/Beta
    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
    Inquistive/Limbic
    AIS Holland code
    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

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