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  1. #21
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    i'm sorry that i have no patience to actually read threads...but for real...just don't ask someone to do something for you that you wouldn't be willing to do for them. i think that's a pretty good measure. and give them the right to say yes or no and accept it either way.

    i occasionally will go out of my way for people..but it's not because someone asks...it seems i'm less inspired to do so when someone does. : /

    was that relevant? i have no idea...
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  2. #22
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    no, Lady, you were perfectly on topic. That is generally a good rule.
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

    INFP, 6w7, IEI

    I accept no responsibility, what so ever, for the fact that I exist; I do, however, accept full responsibility for what I do while I exist.

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  3. #23
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    I've always considered part of my skill set as an INFJ is to be able to communicate by focusing on the core of the communication and not requiring a specific style and presentation of delivery. Because of this I have tended to have easy interactions with people who many consider too blunt or direct. If it is reasonable to assume a benign intent based on the history of the person's actions, then it is almost impossible to offend me. If there is deception and malice demonstrated, then the blazing compliments feel like insults.

    INFJs do value honesty and so this can reasonably take precedence over style.
    Yes, this is similar to how I operate in a professional setting. I do take into account other peoples' natural dispositions/temperaments, and tend to see where they're coming from based on that - and thus don't get offended or hurt based on their manner of communication. As you say, it has to do with the intent behind the message.

    In my previous job I worked with a very blunt older female INTJ with very unrefined (haha ;-) interpersonal skills (many INTJ's aren't like this, but she was more of an extreme example..part of it may be a generational thing though), and she really rubbed most people the wrong way, and due to her inability to soften/tailor her message to the audience at hand she ultimately failed to earn respect of most people, and most people simply got tired of her Te-rants. A shame, really...very bright, I typically agreed with the core of her messages but would inwardly cringe at the delivery itself, at times, as I would watch everyone else in the room zone out as she went on her cynical spiels.... but anyway. We got along well, and I wasn't scared/intimidated by her like most were - but then I could read her well enough to know that I just needed to push back - and I know she respected that I did that..possibly because so few people actually did. Most people found her style incredibly abrasive bordering on irritating, though - consequently they'd learn to ignore her over time.

    For her/ other INTJ's, I think just working on softening her delivery and communication would work wonders -- think diplomacy, not strictly the message itself. You want the recipient of the message to respond favorably to your request/question/whatever. And I know our boss must have coached her at times, because you could tell when she really put forth the effort to 'soften' things and would try to tie in the other persons' point of view (rather than just her own...she had a harder time admitting to other peoples' perspectives), and she would be received much more favorably by coworkers....vs. her more natural tendencies.

    As for the OP.... I can kind of relate to what others have mentioned of 'testing' people, and seeing their true character, and letting myself be 'used', possibly, at least once. Can't think of a specific scenario, and as others have said might not even be fully conscious, but yeah... just as a way to get a sense of the other person and the way THEY choose to play the game. ;-) Gives one a lot of data to work with. But I can pretty easily put my foot down if things become more of a pattern - and I'll stand up for myself or push back. So I might be perceived as uber-nice initially, as I really do want to play fair and honest and treat each other as equals, and treat each other respectfully, but IF people take advantage of that, they'll end up being 'out' and I just won't let them do that anymore.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  4. #24
    Aspie Idealist TaylorS's Avatar
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    I have a huge problem with not being able to say "No!", causing me to burden myself with to many responsibilities that overwhelm me because I simply CANNOT multi-task worth a darn. But when I do say no I feel like a crude, selfish jerk (there is my Enneagram 2 wing, ugh...).
    Autistic INFP


  5. #25
    Senior Member TenebrousReflection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post

    Originally Posted by toonia
    I actually caught myself doing something unawares in business interactions. If it is a client or employer with whom there is a potential long-term business association, I used to subconsciously give them one free shot to exploit me. I wouldn't initially stand my ground because I wanted to know who I was actually dealing with. It was a way of testing them although it was not a conscious plan. I now realize the importance of just assuming the exploitation will occur instead of hoping for a reasonable exchange of professional trust and services.
    OMG! You actually expect people to maintain a constant focus on what your side of the transaction is like? (Oh, I am going to learn from this thread! ) Can you give an example of one such free shot?
    While it does not apply to real life, I can speak of a similar story...

    In the on-line game EverQuest2, I used to play a crafter character who would make items for other players. A lot of those transactions involved someone obtaining rare/expansive items and coming to me (or another crafter of equal skill) to have those items turned into something they wanted. When a new customer would approach me about my services, I would usually just ask for a donation that they thought was fair. If they asked me to quote them a fair price, I told them the costs involved and explained that anythign exceeding those costs was compensation for my time and said something to the effect of "if you don't have much to spare, I'll do it for just the cost, but anything more you can spare would be appreciated and aid my advancement of the craft". If they showed further interest in the economics of it, I would gladly discuss crafting econ (things like how much time it would take for what they wanted and comparing it to opportunity cost of other things I could be doing to make profit with a comparable slice of time) with them but considered it more than most normal people wanted to know .

    If someone made a donation I considered generous, I made a mental note of it and was more responsive to additional requests for them. If somoene was cheap (or poor) I would still help them again later as long as they were polite and courteous, but if they were cheap/poor AND did not appear grateful, then the next time they asked for something I would tell them something like "I'm busy and my time is valuable, ___ (a value comparable to what a very generous donation would be) would make it worth my while, or you could see if _____ (name of most greedy competitor) is available and looking for business". Basically, what matters to me is appreciation that feels genuine, and I also like the feeling of being helpful which is what motivates me to do things for others in the first place.

    In real life, when I was going to school, I also used to volunteer to do things like computer tech work or tutoring in classes I was good at for friends and associates/classmates without asking for donation, but keeping a mental note of who actualy seemed appreciative of my time. I never made a "pay me for my time" ultimatum with any of them, but those that I did not feel were genuinely appreciatve of me I did not go out of my way to make time for.

    One of the reasons I never gave much serious consideration to self-employment of any kind is that I tend to worry that I'd either let others take too much advantage of my generosity and make less than I could working for a company, or I'd feel like I was the one taking advantage of them and I knew that the weight on my conscious of charging even "fair market rates" would take a much greater toll on me than a little conformity to work within an existing system.

  6. #26
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    I am actually not that nice. This sounds more like passiveness than niceness (people confuse the two too much....particularly passive men who say they are nice but aren't - just passive. /tangent).

    I can be passive in asking for favors or when I am a customer & want some kind of deal/discount. I'm terrible at bartering. It's not because I am nice, but it feels presumptuous to me, like I am acting entitled to something I am not (I realize that is a distorted view and that asking for things does not always equal having a sense of being owed).

    I am, however, not a doormat, and so when something truly is owed to me (like money), I will not hesitate to confront someone. I had to do this a lot on my last job (part of why I quit....got tired of fighting for my paycheck), and so people perceived me as having a lot of backbone & being very persistent. It became clear I was not someone who could be taken advantage of. However, I would swallow petty grievances if I felt it was not worth the confrontation. Such as one time I was shorted $20 & told they'd make it up on the next check, but then didn't.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  7. #27
    Senior Member The Grand Chameleon's Avatar
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    Where most will not bother with what is construed as unreasonable requests, extreme, "F's" will go to such great lengths for multiple reasons: to reiterate, for the altruism (which increases sentimental value in the eyes of others, in the eyes of the, "F-er"), for the end-product of the effort (if someone wins, the F-er is content), and the wishful hope of a favor owed in the future. It is more of a, "you get what you give" mentality. Unfortunately, F-ers often give more than they receive.

    F-ers would perhaps be more content if they put themselves out there and directly asked for a refund of services through another type of service. IME, most people are willing to return that favor, but will not do so with the foresight that is expected of them. All you need to do is ask. And should they refuse, there is a plethora of irrational emotions that an F-er can use to replace any sense of disappointment.
    "In the game of chess, you can never let your opponent see your pieces."

  8. #28
    Senior Member scortia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I can be passive in asking for favors or when I am a customer & want some kind of deal/discount. I'm terrible at bartering. It's not because I am nice, but it feels presumptuous to me, like I am acting entitled to something I am not (I realize that is a distorted view and that asking for things does not always equal having a sense of being owed).

    I am, however, not a doormat, and so when something truly is owed to me (like money), I will not hesitate to confront someone.
    I relate entirely to this. I'm not as service-oriented as many other INFJs probably. I will do what's asked of me in most cases, and I am very friendly when the situation acts for it because being friendly and smiley is my subconscious way of dealing with people I'm not close to. But yes, as soon as I'm "screwed over" essentially in some way, I will shock people who don't know me well because I suddenly become strong and bold in a way I never am otherwise.

  9. #29
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    Oh, well. I used to think of myself as really assertive, but when your own extremely demanding boss tells you should learn to say 'no', it's time to reexamine your 'assertively'.

    Now, I am really NOT a doormat, but when people ask for my help my natural response is 'sure, no problem' because I really like solving people's problems for them, and I know whatever they want from me will take me less than half the time it takes them, and I love to feel how people rely on me and trust me thoroughly andwell, it's getting pathetic, isn't it?

    Besides, even when I say 'no' I usually do what I was asked anyway and give somebody a nice surpriseor alternatively, spend some time talking myself out of the guilt.

    BUT, and this is a big but, if I find myself regularly exploited by somebody who will not reciprocate in any way and simply takes me for granted, he or she are in a big trouble. Hell has no fury like an INFJ taken for granted. Suddenly, the tender-hearted, always helpful colleague turns into a stony creature whose glare dares you to ask even for the smallest favor.

    They don't usually dare.

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