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  1. #11
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I think the issue is, we want people to act right because they want to act right, and not for any other reason. We don't want to deal with people we have to force to act right.

    I let out rope the same way, Toonia. Sometimes I just go along, just to see how far they will take it, just so I can see for myself how far they will go before their own conscience or value system kicks in. Sometimes it's worth money just to watch the process.

    "the crazy exchange" doesn't seem crazy to me. It will be less formal as you go along, but you get treated with kid gloves while we're examining you. We don't want to disturb your natural process.

    So don't worry about taking advantage of us. We're not as dumb as we look. If it gets to be too much, we will find a way to make it stop without having to have a confrontation.

  2. #12
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    I figure act within what is reasonable for you or with slightly more allowence. The issue really is something that we have to work on with ourselves and being reasonable with ourselves. With out asking specifically about our situation and our feelings on it (while demanding we be honest) you're not going to get the extra information needed to really help out.
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

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    I accept no responsibility, what so ever, for the fact that I exist; I do, however, accept full responsibility for what I do while I exist.

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  3. #13
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    BerberElla and IntoIt, thanks also to you for chiming in!

    Quote Originally Posted by BerberElla View Post
    I'm not sure about others but for myself I can tell if someone is unintentionally imposing on me, because it's unintentional it doesn't bother me, there is nothing about it that makes me believe I am being taken advantage of.
    Your distinction here as well as toonia's orchestra story is making me think I'm kind of like a parent worrying about whether I will do a good job of bringing up the kids: Just by reflecting on my actions and trying to act with integrity and being aware that some people don't function quite like I do, maybe I'm already doing fine and making too big a deal out of minor glitches in my communication with INFJs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Into It View Post
    Your Te makes it sound like you're TELLING people what to do. And indeed you are. There's nothing wrong with this, but an NF who could be taken advantage of will DO IT if you make a Te statement. So preface such statements with phrases like: "It doesn't matter either way", "it's entirely up to you, but I think it would be best if..." These phrases will at the very least make the NF feel as if he is not really being taken advantage of so much. And if you can achieve this, the relationship will be symbiotic and positive.
    Useful advice and an illuminating explanation of why it works - do you know how to work an INTJ! Thanks!

    But you INTJ's are totally oblivious to nonverbal cues. I'm in a cabin with 3 INTJs at the moment and everyone needs me to spell everything out because my eyes seem to tell them nothing!
    They really don't.

    ---

    Tiltyred, thanks for expounding!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    I think the issue is, we want people to act right because they want to act right, and not for any other reason. We don't want to deal with people we have to force to act right.
    Once again I'm with you.

    What about the distinction between unintentional vs. intentional exploitation that the others have put their finger on - how forgiving are you of wrongdoing due to obliviousness?

    (Do any of you have experience with well-meaning but dense NTJs on this score?)

    "the crazy exchange" doesn't seem crazy to me. It will be less formal as you go along, but you get treated with kid gloves while we're examining you. We don't want to disturb your natural process.
    Can you read into it and tell me what he actually preferred? I still have no clue.

    ---

    Quote Originally Posted by runvardh View Post
    I figure act within what is reasonable for you or with slightly more allowence. The issue really is something that we have to work on with ourselves and being reasonable with ourselves. With out asking specifically about our situation and our feelings on it (while demanding we be honest) you're not going to get the extra information needed to really help out.
    Thanks for chiming in, runvardh! I don't take it you recommend doing this in the workplace though? (I do it with my INFJ friend, and that works. I think. He still wants to be my friend, anyway. )

  4. #14
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    I think what it comes down to for me is that I'd rather be ripped off than rip someone else off. That's in situations where the waters are a little murky. It doesn't apply in situations where I know/strongly suspect someone else is trying to rip me off.

  5. #15
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    Your distinction here as well as toonia's orchestra story is making me think I'm kind of like a parent worrying about whether I will do a good job of bringing up the kids: Just by reflecting on my actions and trying to act with integrity and being aware that some people don't function quite like I do, maybe I'm already doing fine and making too big a deal out of minor glitches in my communication with INFJs.
    I've always considered part of my skill set as an INFJ is to be able to communicate by focusing on the core of the communication and not requiring a specific style and presentation of delivery. Because of this I have tended to have easy interactions with people who many consider too blunt or direct. If it is reasonable to assume a benign intent based on the history of the person's actions, then it is almost impossible to offend me. If there is deception and malice demonstrated, then the blazing compliments feel like insults.

    INFJs do value honesty and so this can reasonably take precedence over style.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  6. #16
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post

    What about the distinction between unintentional vs. intentional exploitation that the others have put their finger on - how forgiving are you of wrongdoing due to obliviousness?
    If it looks like you're oblivious some of us wiser/more mature ones will try and help out.

    (Do any of you have experience with well-meaning but dense NTJs on this score?)
    I don't feel I've ever been exploited by an INTJ. I've only dealt with two IRL and only the one I worked with asked for things, all of which where quite reasonable.

    Thanks for chiming in, runvardh. I don't take it you recommend doing this in the workplace though? (I do it with my INFJ friend, and that works. I think. He still wants to be my friend, anyway. )
    Eh, it all depends on how the professional relationship is. It could come across as talking down to him. I suppose you could keep track of how many times he sighs in a minute; more than once confirm the terms?
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

    INFP, 6w7, IEI

    I accept no responsibility, what so ever, for the fact that I exist; I do, however, accept full responsibility for what I do while I exist.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  7. #17
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    I have to be off to bed now, but one final question for the evening: Any tips for an elevator speech about how I work (Te, well-meaning, and obliviousness rolled into one) that I could offer e.g. to the INFJ of the OP and the 'crazy exchange' next time an occasion arises? (And would it be a good idea to volunteer such information, do you think?)

  8. #18
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    Ok. I haven't read the other posts here, so...sorry if I'm repeating something already said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    Give me insight: What makes you go out of your way to service others? What is going through your head in the situations where you end up (either more or less voluntarily) being taken advantage of? Why don't you set reasonable boundaries?
    Personally, sometimes I just like the idea of being helpful. I cannot call it being altruistic, but if I can help somebody make something better or feel better, then...I feel better. I hate feeling that I could have done something and I didn't and something went wrong. control freak

    I also do it to test people. I do expect that they do something for me in return. If they don't, then I'll just know.
    This doesn't actually keep me from doing them favours. I'll just know not to expect anything in return. Come to think of it, it is kind of sad to get a confirmation of something I already suspected of them. Or maybe I do it to get some masochistic pleasure from getting the confirmation that people are really only after personal gain. So, it is personal gain for both parties involved.

  9. #19
    Senior Mugwump Apollanaut's Avatar
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    I have been called "too nice for my own good" on many occasions. I always start out by assuming that other people have good intentions, and will offer help, advice or other support where it seems appropriate.

    However, I have been burned very badly in the past by people taking advantage of my good nature. One supposedly close friend made my life hell for years - in retrospect, she knew exactly how to work me and get me to do what she wanted. I don't respond to bullying or aggressive behaviour, but I used to be a sucker for a polite request or an emotional appeal. This woman finally went too far and started using emotional blackmail. I ended up telling her exactly what I thought of her behaviour, which was the last thing she expected from me and the beginning of the end of our friendship.

    I am much more assertive now, but mostly I keep my tough side in reserve, as I usually get much better results by being agreeable and persuasive. My greatest discovery was that Fe can work both ways - as well as picking up on other's wants and needs, we can project our own feelings outwards to influence others very powerfully.

    When I'm speaking from the heart, there is no need for too much Fe "niceness" or avoidance of tricky subjects, I can be completely honest and open about my needs, ideas and beliefs, but without offending, commanding or attempting to control others. It's hard to describe this type of Feeling communication in words, but when you see it in action, its power is undeniable.

    A good example might be Barack Obama - when he gives a speech about something he cares about, he comes across as sincere and passsionate and people respond in huge numbers. I guess you'd call it charisma.

    Now I have more choice about whether or not to offer help or support to others. Still, if I see someone in obvious pain or distress, I feel a powerful pull towards them, to offer my help or simply a listening ear or a shoulder to cry on. I guess it's not entirely altruistic, because there is a genuine reward for helping others in an appropriate fashion. When I succeed in helping someone solve a dilemma, or help to lift their mood or see them smile, I get a huge surge of positive feelings in response. This type of feeling can stay with me for a long time afterwards, and is much more satisfying than simply gratifying my own needs.
    INFJ 9w1 sx/sp/so

    "A wizard is never late. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." - Gandalf The Grey

    And if I only could,
    I'd make a deal with God,
    And I'd get him to swap our places,
    Be running up that road,
    Be running up that hill,
    With no problems.

    - Kate Bush

  10. #20
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    It's a mix for me. I loooveee helping people out. Their gratitude is my reward. Consequently..I'll avoid you if you do not appreciate it or take me for granted.

    Also, I'm not of this world. Quite literally. Though I can read people, I don't keep up with social convention. Which means that if you come to me with an attitude that it is quite reasonable for you to 'demand' this particular thing from me, I'll automatically oblige as it seems like the normal convention in society to do, especially if I'm in a new job or new situation. I'm...working on this one though

    Next, I'm hardwired to help people. Why would I deny anyone anything that I can provide and they need? That's just...willfully evil in my book. Sure it can be a small inconvenience to me, but it seems important to you. Why wouldn't I help you out? I kinda assume you'd do the same for me, but if you have a good reason as to why you cannot help me, I'll understand perfectly well as well.

    Ultimately, to me it's about keeping good relations with the person. Refusing a favor seems like a stupid reason to let bonds die. And yes, I realize that sometimes I should set boundaries but I just..don't
    Give me harmony over potential conflict any day.

    What can you do? If I seem stressed or frown when you ask me, assume that it's a bad time to ask me for a favor. Don't let this stop you though if it is in fact important. Typically I'll need more than a second to say that I can do it as well, as I'll need to rearrange my schedule. Afterwards, appreciate what I did for you. And if you notice me struggling with something at any given time, offer to help out, or be open to me asking you for help.

    Other than that, I enjoy helping you out. So don't feel bad about it
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

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