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[MBTI General] Why NFs think that they understand NTs ?

Virtual ghost

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Good luck with that! I've been trying to do the same thing for 3 years... and I've made no progress. It's so intimidating, isn't it? :( It's just not easy to associate with people or build a network of friends when you don't trust people. There's also the concerns about things getting harder to control if you begin relying on people for things. It's so messy.

Well, I am trying for a month and I can say that I have a observable progress in these matters. But I don't want to go too fast since that would look quite unnatural and it would not be that good as a strategy.

I am sorry but I am too TJ to fail. :vader1:
 

Athenian200

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Well, I am trying for a month and I can say that I have a observable progress in these matters. But I don't want to go too fast since that would look quite unnatural and it would not be that good as a strategy.

I am sorry but I am too TJ to fail. :vader1:

I've always been jealous of that TJ confidence. Ironically, they usually end up effectively being more social than me, because they're more able to make dealing with people in certain contexts a practical issue rather than a personal one. They don't let things about other people get to them or repulse them quite as easily.

And there's no need to apologize. I want you to succeed. :)
 

Virtual ghost

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I've always been jealous of that TJ confidence. Ironically, they usually end up effectively being more social than me, because they're more able to make dealing with people in certain contexts a practical issue rather than a personal one. They don't let things about other people get to them or repulse them quite as easily.

And there's no need to apologize. I want you to succeed. :)


I am curious.

Why do you have so many problems in achiving this goal ?
I mean 3 years is a lot of time.
 

Athenian200

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I am curious.

Why do you have so many problems in achiving this goal ?
I mean 3 years is a lot of time.

I'm really paranoid, and every time I start to do something, I get faced with lots of unfamiliar details and complications that feel so messy, along with external pressure to plan it out in more detail than I like, and worry about worst case scenarios (which I'm already paranoid about) pretty much kills the spark and makes me decide to do something easier.
 

Amargith

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AO, I think that one of the reasons there was so much drama in this thread is because... well, you may find that we intuit your emotions and therefore think we understand you. But in essence, NTs do the same, and there's also proof in this thread for that. They just use 'logic'. I mean, how often haven't I had to clarify what I meant, because they drew a conclusion from what I said before that was..well...not correct. But they went with it anyways, as to them, it was logical that that's what I meant. And, indeed, afterwards, it was met with paranoia when I said that that was not what I meant (coz I must be trying to keep the peace or something now that I saw what kind of reaction I got). Isn't that what we do with your emotions? Isn't that NTs 'assuming' they understand what NFs are thinking?

And for that matter, those moments, are the moments that you feel most annoyed and frustrated, even attacked as an NF, as they're putting words and conclusions in your mouth that you didn't even say. To them it might just be a way of 'fleshing out the truth'. To me, it feels like you don't give me the benefit of the doubt and won't even ask a question to verify if your conclusion could possibly be way off base?

So the question becomes..is there something we can do about this? Do we both stop being sensitive to each other? Do we both take into account how the other one is likely to perceive our methods? Or is there some other option available?
 

Virtual ghost

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AO, I think that one of the reasons there was so much drama in this thread is because... well, you may find that we intuit your emotions and therefore think we understand you. But in essence, NTs do the same, and there's also proof in this thread for that. They just use 'logic'. I mean, how often haven't I had to clarify what I meant, because they drew a conclusion from what I said before that was..well...not correct. But they went with it anyways, as to them, it was logical that that's what I meant. And, indeed, afterwards, it was met with paranoia when I said that that was not what I meant (coz I must be trying to keep the peace or something now that I saw what kind of reaction I got). Isn't that what we do with your emotions? Isn't that NTs 'assuming' they understand what NFs are thinking?

And for that matter, those moments, are the moments that you feel most annoyed and frustrated, even attacked as an NF, as they're putting words and conclusions in your mouth that you didn't even say. To them it might just be a way of 'fleshing out the truth'. To me, it feels like you don't give me the benefit of the doubt and won't even ask a question to verify if your conclusion could possibly be way off base?

So the question becomes..is there something we can do about this? Do we both stop being sensitive to each other? Do we both take into account how the other one is likely to perceive our methods? Or is there some other option available?


You see, this is the main problem
I am sorry Amargith but about which drama you are talking about ?
For me this is just a chit chat.



If some other NTs got "excited" over this you will have to solve that with them.


Here is a classical problem.
I will use my mother for an example again.

Something happens and she get emotional in a negative way what means that you can't avoid her and she is clearly overdramatic.
But I don't see the point in this. So I just use my Te on her to kill the communication or to cause emotional cascade so that she can calm down.

So she ends up hurt even more. But the worst thing is that she can see how I can go quietly about my business like nothing happened. Which is because I didn't use any emotions.


You never seem to learn not to do this. You are repeating this over and over again even if we explain you not to do this. You will only be hurting yourself not me. This is why I/we think that this is simply stupid.


I am probably not a typical NT when it comes to this but this is my position.
Every time I see tears I roll my eyes and I can't help it.
I am willing to talk about it but I can't do this if you are crying, screaming or something like that. What matters to me are facts, projections, ideas and outcomes. Which is exactly why problem can happen in the first place.
I am sorry but I don't cry at all.


My mother is emotionally stablie person it is just that sometimes shit happen.
But over the years things got better since people learn over time after all.
Plus I try to look more emotional what has proven to be a good strategy.
 

Amargith

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Sigh, I was referring to all the back and forth that was going on in this thread, AO. Dunno what you're on about. I thought you wanted to understand how communication worked between an NT and an NF. I thought this might be of some help. Nvm :)
The fact however that you chose to trip over the meaning of the word 'drama' in my post and not see the rest of the post, is kinda disappointing though.
 

Virtual ghost

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Sigh, I was referring to all the back and forth that was going on in this thread, AO. Dunno what you're on about. I thought you wanted to understand how communication worked between an NT and an NF. I thought this might be of some help. Nvm :)

I know exactly on what you were referring to it is just that I don't see it that dramatic.

Just because I gave you that reply that does not mean that I am not willing to learn. I am simply trying to show my background.
I can't be clear if I don't show that. back then I was unintersted but that is no longer the case.


The whole point of that story was that you shouldn't start to freak out that easily, since some NFs have that tendencies.
 

Amargith

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So wait, now you're intuiting my emotions? Did I say I freaked out? I used the word 'drama' to describe some of the responses that were given here. Maybe you guys would prefer using chit chat, fine. To me it was a lot of unnecessary drama. That doesn't mean I'm freaked out or hurt. Seriously. I wouldn't be in this thread if that were the case. As for my post, I was trying to get this thread to a constructive build-up, move passed all the 'drama', and maybe get some answers, find a solution, as this topic also interests me greatly. I'd love to finally get to that phase.
 

Virtual ghost

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So wait, now you're intuiting my emotions? Did I say I freaked out? I used the word 'drama' to describe some of the responses that were given here. Maybe you guys would prefer using chit chat, fine. To me it was a lot of unnecessary drama. That doesn't mean I'm freaked out or hurt. Seriously. I wouldn't be in this thread if that were the case. As for my post, I was trying to get this thread to a constructive build-up, move passed all the 'drama', and maybe get some answers, find a solution, as this topic also interests me greatly. I'd love to finally get to that phase.

Ok, you have my attention.


But I used that "freaked out" in general. It wasn't about you or even about this thread.
 

Amargith

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Ok, you have my attention.


But I used that "freaked out" in general. It wasn't about you or even about this thread.

I'm still waiting for a response to what I posted beyond the word 'drama'. Here it is once more:


Could it be that you do the same to us by drawing logical conclusions from what we've said and assuming that that's what we meant and immediately responding to that assumed and perceived intention instead of taking a moment to verify if that in fact is what we meant? And if so, do you understand that that can be equally annoying to us as the thing you are adressing in this thread now? For that matter, does that give you some insight as to why we do it, since you do the same thing, only on a different area? And how can we actually deal with this effectively?
 

Virtual ghost

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I'm still waiting for a response to what I posted beyond the word 'drama'. Here it is once more:


Could it be that you do the same to us by drawing logical conclusions from what we've said and assuming that that's what we meant and immediately responding to that assumed and perceived intention instead of taking a moment to verify if that in fact is what we meant? And if so, do you understand that that can be equally annoying to us as the thing you are adressing in this thread now? For that matter, does that give you some insight as to why we do it, since you do the same thing, only on a different area? And how can we actually deal with this effectively?



On most cases the answer is no. But this is my personal answer.
The thing is that in a moment you say something I see so many outcomes, plans and ways of acting that I have to check everything.
That is why my conversations are looking like police investigations what can annoy NFs (or people in genaral) since they think that I don't trust them.
While I just have to fill in all the gaps. Since I don't see the point in converstation if things are not clear. (unless it is something trivial and irrelevant)

But since I can't function like this socially I try to avoid this trait as much as I can.
 

Amargith

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Agreed, in my conversations with you personally, I found that you do verify. I for one, appreciate that, as it gives me a chance to explain the things that are maybe obvious to me but might not be for you and prevent misunderstandings. I was referring to NT-conversations in general, but we will see what others have to say on this matter :)
 

Salomé

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Could it be that you do the same to us by drawing logical conclusions from what we've said and assuming that that's what we meant and immediately responding to that assumed and perceived intention instead of taking a moment to verify if that in fact is what we meant? And if so, do you understand that that can be equally annoying to us as the thing you are adressing in this thread now? For that matter, does that give you some insight as to why we do it, since you do the same thing, only on a different area? And how can we actually deal with this effectively?
ETA: did you just complain about people assuming that you actually mean what you say? That's pretty damned funny!

Nope. Completely different. If the conclusions we draw are, as you say, logical, then you have no sound objection. Just because you may not like what you are hearing, doesn't make it less true. And if you have failed to communicate what you are thinking effectively - the failure is yours, I only work with what you've told me, not what I imagine you meant. That's not the same thing as making entirely speculative judgments about how someone is feeling or what motivates them. Not being able to back it up with anything other than "intuition", but clinging unreasonabley to that position regardless.

I find NFs often value my clarity of thought and ability to be objective. In addition, I rarely give advice unless it is actively sought.
 

Amargith

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I'm sorry, Jeno, I'm going to use you as an example here :)

This was an answer to me explaining how things work for me. She concluded that therefore, since she was not the same way, it therefore was potentially wrong in my eyes. Granted, afterwards, she said she was just curious. She did however reason/deduct from my statement that it was possible that therefore she according to me maybe couldn't connect with others. Which was hardly what I meant.

I don't understand this extremity. Why does there have to be a divide or a need to work something out? If I don't care about every single subtle (possibly irrational) emotion, does this then mean that we can't get along? Or that I am incapable of "connecting" with others?

Also are you talking about being insensitive to one's own emotions, or to those of others?





Of course we value insight and objectivity, otherwise we wouldn't seek out conversations with NTs :) But what I'm getting at is that not every logical deduction is therefore also correct. Even amongst NTs there's plenty of going back and forth between what is logical and what isn't. Hence the conclusions you sometimes draw can be wrong and should maybe first be verified through questions. Then again, from the above example it could be just the method that is lacking, as Jeno expressed she was merely curious. Perhaps NTs state what they consider to be truth and expect it to be refuted if untrue? And perhaps, NFs do the same with intuiting emotions.They state what they think the other could be experiencing as if it were the case. And if the other party isn't able to convince us that our conclusions are wrong, both parties have a tendency to treat the rebuttal as irrelevant and stick to their opinions.



ETA: no blue, I didn't :) You once again misunderstood the meaning of my words.
 

Salomé

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AS-one, I think you are farming content for a book you are writing or something...hope you are getting good material from all of your provocative threads!

Yeah, I agree, something just doesn't sit right.

you think he's bad? how about coberst, he doesn't even talk outside his own threads. i'd consider him farming before this guy.
LOL @ the NFPs making assumptions about motivations, rather than answering the frigging question!

Prosecution rests. :D
 

Salomé

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I'm sorry, Jeno, I'm going to use you as an example here :)
That's a really bad example, if you are trying to make a point. She asked you a question and thereby gave you the means of providing clarification.
ETA: no blue, I didn't :) You once again misunderstood the meaning of my words.
Yes, you did. Read it again. Maybe you are the one with the communication issue. I realize English isn't your mother tongue. A little humility wouldn't hurt.
 

Amargith

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That's a really bad example, if you are trying to make a point. She asked you a question and thereby gave you the means of providing clarification.
Yes, you did. Read it again. Maybe you are the one with the communication issue. I realize English isn't your mother tongue. A little humility wouldn't hurt.

Sigh, I know you don't like me dear, but can you try to look passed that and maybe take a look at what I'm trying to say, instead of getting bogged down in details and what not. I doubt that with your intelligence you're really not getting what I'm trying to say, however flawed my English is in your opinion.. Maybe you and your NT-logic can help me fill in the gaps you so seem to get hung up on. Ya know, put your personal feelings for me aside and help each other out for a change, in order to get somewhere with this topic?

Otherwise, I might have to assume that maybe you enjoy complaining about this supposed flaw in NFs, instead of trying to actually get beyond that and find a solution. And then there's no point in further discussing this, at least imo.
 

PeaceBaby

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LOL @ the NFPs making assumptions about motivations, rather than answering the frigging question!

Prosecution rests. :D

Sorry bluemonday, you've just made an inaccurate assumption about the intention of my post.

:doh:

We NF's tend to accept AS-one's initial post as a genuine desire to understand, yet I am postulating an alternate hypothesis simply in the interest of shaking the tree, exposing the fact that there are likely other factors at play than a "desire to understand". I am not buying that anymore; these continual threads revolving on the topic are just provocative, and I am not seeing any evolution in AS-one's understanding.

My gentle advice to NF's: just don't take the bait. AS-one, you need to get out in the real world rather than the forum to better understand the dynamics you claim to seek.

I wish you every success in this endeavor. :yes:
 
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