[MBTI General] Why NFs think that they understand NTs ?

[sculpting]

But usually there is no problem to overcome. Whenever my friends invite me over for some wine and "to talk", I bristle knowing that this will be yet another night of looking for problems, or rehashing the ones we've already talked about and solved. .

okay-so if it's thier problem then perhaps they never finished solving it-so for them Fi just keeps on cycling? However its is yours then they make the mistake of assuming you are like them and need to rehash. That would be annoying.

Interesting. I am observant in an Ne sort of way. I just absorb and collect, but I don't come to judgments or conclusions - I'm not even usually aware of the person. The pieces just circle about in my subconscious mind to be drawn on later for inspiration, imagination or whatever.

Ne. It is some crazee shit. Anyways N=1 so I need to watch more and think more on this. You can watch thier faces as they swap from Ne to Ti, but I should go find some more to pester and brain pick.

 

[jenocyde]

okay so wait-This was in my brain all yesterday as I was playing texting with an entp. He would make Ne-Ti logical connections which I would promptly scramble with Ne-Fi insanity to lead us off in a new direction. He would then Ne-Ti connect the new pieces and I would scramble again.

Ti is pure logic. It presents facts to facts to facts for Ne to connect. They can be really clever and witty and fun, but it's factual. Can you make a Ne connection without the fact????

Fi is-well I dont know what it is-but not logical. It presents feelings, subtlties, shades of nuance for Ne to connect. pieces, parts of fluffy stuff that Ne ties together. With people it seems to present holistic stuff for Ne to connect. It skips over walls, boundaries and isnt "constrained " by logical barriers.

So Ne-Fi may figure stuff out that Ne-Ti can't?? I see this practically in troubleshooting the scientific instrument I work on. Given a problem I am way, way up high and I just sort of "feel" around until I find the piece that seems a little out of joint. Then I point to it and the problem is there. I am much better at troublshooting than most NTs for this reason.

I'm sorry Puppy, I have no idea what you are talking about. Really, I don't understand - can you clarify?

I think what you're getting at is what I wrote in that 'N and T go together thread' yesterday, but I can't be certain. If so, I have to say that my Ne feeds the Ti, not the other way around... My Ti, or your Fi, is the Ne filter.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

Expert enough to judge and dismiss their motivation for engaging in debate nonetheless. Perhaps you would do better to ask questions, than pass judgement, if understanding is what you truly seek.

I think you need to reread my post.

 

[sculpting]

I can't remember the last time I said that either of those things, but sometimes when I hold a view (for or against) it can take me a while to identify and trace the logic/values which has led me to that position. That doesn't mean I can't or that it's arbitrary.

does Logic=values in a debate? Are both equally valid ways of argument and discussion?

 

[JivinJeffJones]

does Logic=values in a debate? Are both equally valid ways of argument and discussion?

No, I meant logic or values, though I don't think they're mutually exclusive.

 

[Virtual ghost]

If you're really that interested, perhaps you should... live a little? You know, go out and get to know them? Random internet strangers won't ever give you satisfactory answers, they can help, but the rest is up to you. You should experience AND analyze things.
If you really are interested, that is.

Why not visiting a party, where you can observe NFs and develop your communication skills with them? (I don't know where exactly you live, but I'm truly in love with croatian landscapes - it's summer, and the sea is propably close to your location, you should make the best of this huge advantage)

The thing is that I am not that much isolated it is just that I am not really close to anyone.

Also it is wise to gather some of the basic data first and then start acting.
(at least that is how I do things)


Btw people have noticed that I am not myself lately. What is understandable.
My mother even said to me that I am finally starting to show the first signs that I will go into a puberty. (about a decade too late)






Ok I will be more direct from this point.

NFs, do you have problem with the concept/scenario that someone defends position which he/she does not support?

Can you also explain your opinion about this?

 

[Salomé]

does Logic=values in a debate? Are both equally valid ways of argument and discussion?

Precisely. He's confusing logic with rationalization.

 

[sculpting]

I'm sorry Puppy, I have no idea what you are talking about. Really, I don't understand - can you clarify?

I think what you're getting at is what I wrote in that 'N and T go together thread' yesterday, but I can't be certain. If so, I have to say that my Ne feeds the Ti, not the other way around... My Ti, or your Fi, is the Ne filter.

I need to go read that thread, however Ne sucks in info constantly correct? It perceives potentials all around the enviornment.

However could what Ne chooses to perceive and feed into the brain be determined somewhat by Ti or Fi? In nueroscience there are all types of studies that show your brain is primed to pay attention to things you are already interested in. If I am Fi, I am interestd in subtle behavorial things, so will Ne be primed to pick those perceptions up over more logical facts?

 

[JivinJeffJones]

Precisely. He's confusing logic with rationalization.

At times, but what I'm trying to say is that the values I hold are (to me) logical. If they're illogical then the cognitive dissonance prompts me to ditch them, sooner or later. But if that's the pigeon-hole you want to put me in, go ahead.

 

[sculpting]

Precisely. He's confusing logic with rationalization.

sorry I didnt mean logic and values were the same but rather of equal importance in an argument/debate/discussion.

I think the difference is what type of problem are you trying to solve/debate/analyze.

If I need to solve a problem that involves pure logic than logic is by far the best tool.

If I need to solve a problem that involves a combination of applying values and logic, thats where things get really messy.

people problems can be very difficult to work through using pure logic. The value side is not clean or neat but is essential to consider even though it is very muddy.

 

[Amargith]

The thing is that I am not that much isolated it is just that I am not really close to anyone.

Also it is wise to gather some of the basic data first and then start acting.
(at least that is how I do things)


Btw people have noticed that I am not myself lately. What is understandable.
My mother even said to me that I am finally starting to show the first signs that I will go into a puberty. (about a decade too late)






Ok I will be more direct from this point.

NFs, do you have problem with the concept/scenario that someone defends position which he/she does not support?

Can you also explain your opinion about this?

Well, we do the same to a certain extent to see the POV of the other side. However, to have someone do it elaborately is a drag, especially if that POV is already being seen by us. I mean, I don't particularly like arguing for the sake of arguing, and if you are agreeing with me, then why are we in fact arguing? We can discuss it just for the heck of it sure, with what-if scenarios and all. But to have someone oppose me just for *fun*? Too much wasted energy, imo. It aggrevates me even, coz I can sense that your heart is not in it and you're just doing it to goad me. End result? Me leaving or blocking the conversation.

 

[sculpting]

At times, but what I'm trying to say is that the values I hold are (to me) logical. If they're illogical then the cognitive dissonance prompts me to ditch them, sooner or later. But if that's the pigeon-hole you want to put me in, go ahead.

jeff, how do you determine the logical connections between the values? What makes them logical if they do not have an underpinning of facts that you can call out that justify thier logical basis?

 

[jenocyde]

Why tone it down?

Because people don't like it when I laugh at their problems.

Who said I'm annoyed by it? I do it too. I think it's more an NP thing than an NT thing. But given the NTP propensity for playing devil's advocate, I'm less inclined to think they're convinced about what they're saying than with an NTJ. Exploratory positions, I call it.

Well, you said that there was no logic in it or something.

And you're right, it's exploratory - why should I be convinced? And why do you assume that I am convinced?

I can't remember the last time I said that either of those things, but sometimes when I hold a view (for or against) it can take me a while to identify and trace the logic/values which has led me to that position. That doesn't mean I can't or that it's arbitrary.

But then why bring it up if you are not prepared to talk about it? I know that I would never tell someone that my uncle died or my bf left me, in a casual conversation, unless I wanted to talk about it and was prepared to do so.

okay-so if it's thier problem then perhaps they never finished solving it-so for them Fi just keeps on cycling? However its is yours then they make the mistake of assuming you are like them and need to rehash. That would be annoying.

I feel pressured to exhibit an emotion, at any cost. So my friends dig and look for problems - I'm not referring to talking about current problems. This is why I asked if this is how you bond.

 

[garbage]

But usually there is no problem to overcome. Whenever my friends invite me over for some wine and "to talk", I bristle knowing that this will be yet another night of looking for problems, or rehashing the ones we've already talked about and solved.

You know your friends better than I do, but perhaps the actual underlying problem isn't solved; it could be something deeper than the "problem" that was presented.

Solving the day-to-day problems is just pruning the tree and expecting it all to wither away on its own.

 

[jenocyde]

You know your friends better than I do, but perhaps the actual underlying problem isn't solved; it could be something deeper than the "problem" that was presented.

Solving the day-to-day problems is just pruning the tree and expecting it all to wither away on its own.

You guys are not understanding me - they dig into me looking for problems. They assume there to be problems where there are none, or assume that I would feel an emotion about something I've already dealt with and solved. It appears to be regular, everyday bonding - looking for problems. And this is why I asked if people are projecting their emotional states onto me.

 

[sculpting]

Because people don't like it when I laugh at their problems.

I feel pressured to exhibit an emotion, at any cost. So my friends dig and look for problems - I'm not referring to talking about current problems. This is why I asked if this is how you bond.

Maybe I have been around entps too much. I like laughing at my problems. It makes it so much more easy to deal with. Please make fun of me and make me laugh as it gives perspective and gets me out of my rut.

Bonding-no not me. I have to talk about my problems to the point where i drive others a little batty- (i am working on it-dude check out then entp men thread-OMG what a whiner I am).

When I bond though, typically I flash Fi at most folks. However with ENTPs I bond via Ne-Fi playfulness or full fledged debates and arguments. I LOVE arguing with you guys. Its so fun. I totally understand picking sides, changing in mid argument, and taking the problem and attacking it from all sides. it's play.

 

[Salomé]

At times, but what I'm trying to say is that the values I hold are (to me) logical. If they're illogical then the cognitive dissonance prompts me to ditch them, sooner or later. But if that's the pigeon-hole you want to put me in, go ahead.

What you are trying to say is they make sense to you. Logic isn't relative. It's impersonal. This is a fine example of the conflict of interests inherent in the NT vs NF positions.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

I see thinkers make just as many assumptions about motives and intentions, especially when dealing with feelers. Once they latch onto a belief about an intention or motive, they cannot be reasoned with.

Neither side has a monopoly on making assumptions about people.

+1

Antisocial one likes to start these threads where he accuses a certain temperament of a behavior or way of thinking that is not isolated to the temperament.

I'm starting to wonder if it is possible to have anything more than a superficial understanding between NTs and NFs. Our world views and priorities seem so different...

I think this forum has a way of creating artificial barriers. People are not destined to misunderstanding because they prefer different functions. Irl my NT friends and I don't have much of a problem understanding each other. The N link really helps with that.

 

[jenocyde]

Maybe I have been around entps too much. I like laughing at my problems. It makes it so much more easy to deal with. Please make fun of me and make me laugh as it gives perspective and gets me out of my rut.

If someone tells you some idiot died jumping off the roof with a blanket around their neck because he thought he could fly, you might laugh.

If that someone is my friend talking about his dad, it takes all sorts of pinching my thigh and biting my lip to hold the laughter in. But if my mind drifts and I start to visualize him in blue and red superman pajamas... I have to leave the room and laugh it out.

Do you understand what I mean? I find humor in everything, even the most inappropriate things you can imagine. People really don't like it when I laugh at their problems.

 

[sculpting]

You guys are not understanding me - they dig into me looking for problems. They assume there to be problems where there are none, or assume that I would feel an emotion about something I've already dealt with and solved. It appears to be regular, everyday bonding - looking for problems. And this is why I asked if people are projecting their emotional states onto me.

hmmm, so I am trying to think outloud here..

If I was going to write a "how is jeno doing " PM,

It would be "heh, how are you, how is the boy thing going, hope all is well in your world, hows your business, " and so on..

feely, feely, feely. The first few thoughts are checking up on the last time we chatted, but you may have moved past those issues already, yet just in case (cause ya know how feelers love to give love), I will give some happy vibes in that direction. Not digging for issues, but just checking the thermostat and reaffirming the emo bond (OMG!!!!!did I just say that???).

shit you could be onto something...

However I would never then proceed to dig into someone if they said all was well. what you say is what you feel until you share otherwise. I would not try and create problems just to have something to bond over.


but i hang with lots of thinkers and have for many years. I may be primed to be a bit better about those T emo boundaries IRL than other feelers?