[MBTI General] Why NFs think that they understand NTs ?

[sculpting]

I think there's a tendency for some people to project their feelings onto me because that's what they would feel if they were in my shoes. And when I assert that I do not feel that way at all, I am told that I am in denial or out of touch with my emotions.

bingo. or covering up/lying.

yes, to me it seems like they are inventing my emotions and prosecuting me for them.

the type to understand you the best has got to be your own.

1) do you guys think you may be showing physiological signs of an emotional response but be unaware you are doing so? Ie you dont know what you are feeling exactly? So the NF picks it up subtle cues, tries to describe it, then screws up as you guys are still not even aware of exactly what is going on yourselves? (Just a Q I really have no idea, so no offense please)

2) Is it this mistaken perception, or the following persecution that is most offensive? (persecution?? what is that exactly, as thats a crazy strong word, and I hope I'd never do that)

3) Or is that maybe they saw and tried to describe what you were projecting outwards before you had a chance to understand it yourself? And thus it is the presumption that they understand that is so offensive, when you do not understand quite yet.

4) does it bother you more that they try and descibe your thoughts, your feelings, or your motivations?

5) Do you find this gets used as tool against you when in conflict with an NF? And then you are assigned feelings, motivations and such which are incorrect. (and on that note, potentially later, after analysis, could some of it have been correct?)

6) is part of the offense that someone would even try and understand your emotions? Ie its none of our business in the first place?

Again I have no idea, so no offense please, just trying to scope out the problem better

 

[Tigerlily]

I don't completely understand NT's I don't know but I do understand my NT husband. sometimes he says things that "hurt" my feelings and when we first were married I'd be in tears but now I just tell him to stfu and he's fine with that.

 

[Kalach]

1) do you guys think you may be showing physiological signs of an emotional response but be unaware you are doing so? Ie you dont know what you are feeling exactly? So the NF picks it up subtle cues, tries to describe it, then screws up as you guys are still not even aware of exactly what is going on yourselves? (Just a Q I really have no idea, so no offense please)

2) Is it this mistaken perception, or the following persecution that is most offensive? (persecution?? what is that exactly, as thats a crazy strong word, and I hope I'd never do that)

Depends which NF and how well versed they are in T speak, I guess.

Because first, if we--I, they, whatever, me and other NTs--are trying to do anything, it's going through T first, and if that T gets ignored to cut to the F chase, problems are going to occur, like the "You're not hearing me!" dance.

And Fe/Fi screw-ups make it that much worse.

Like, if I speak about anything at all, even feelings, it's going to come out sounding like thinking about what's true outside of myself, just because my natural public language is Te, and feeling is going to start to rise up behind those words, driving them. So if I'm dealing with an NFJ, we're screwed, basically. It'll be a competition for dominance, who gets to win the final say in "what's really happening right now."

NFPs shooting their mouth off about what I feel doesn't seem that difficult to deal with so far.

Famous last words maybe.

 

[Salomé]

I find it difficult to imagine any NFs have ever suggested they do. Certainly not on this website.

Well, I can't account for the failure of your imagination.
I don't think anyone on this website would profess to understand me, or even be interested in so doing. I was merely pointing out the difference between knowledge and understanding. I'm starting to wonder if it is possible to have anything more than a superficial understanding between NTs and NFs. Our world views and priorities seem so different...

 

[Phantonym]

You're crazy.

yeah um, I meant CRAZY AWESOME

Good save. Yeah, thanks

 

[Amargith]

Depends which NF and how well versed they are in T speak, I guess.

Because first, if we--I, they, whatever, me and other NTs--are trying to do anything, it's going through T first, and if that T gets ignored to cut to the F chase, problems are going to occur, like the "You're not hearing me!" dance.

And Fe/Fi screw-ups make it that much worse.

Like, if I speak about anything at all, even feelings, it's going to come out sounding like thinking about what's true outside of myself, just because my natural public language is Te, and feeling is going to start to rise up behind those words, driving them. So if I'm dealing with an NFJ, we're screwed, basically. It'll be a competition for dominance, who gets to win the final say in "what's really happening right now."

NFPs shooting their mouth off about what I feel doesn't seem that difficult to deal with so far.

Famous last words maybe.

Agreed. It is harder to connect for me to those with Ti, aka INTPs and ENTPs. Possible, but takes a lot more out of me than with NTJs for instance. And yes...maybe shortwiring the system is one of the main mistakes of F's, now that you mention it. It feels odd to involve T when talking about emotions. I only use T afterwards to analyze them and see how they are relevant to the situation that caused them. Also, if I'm tired or impatient, or otherwise not feeling optimal, it's very tempting to cut through it all and just get to the bloody point, which in this case is that stupid flickering light on my emotional radar

Well, I can't account for the failure of your imagination.
I don't think anyone on this website would profess to understand me, or even be interested in so doing. I was merely pointing out the difference between knowledge and understanding. I'm starting to wonder if it is possible to have anything more than a superficial understanding between NTs and NFs. Our world views and priorities seem so different...

It is, but only upto certain point, ime. You can get beneath the surface though. And you can get quite deep. But you'll never get there completely. On the other hand...I think that's part of the attraction between us. There will always be a bit of mystery

 

[JivinJeffJones]

Because first, if we--I, they, whatever, me and other NTs--are trying to do anything, it's going through T first, and if that T gets ignored to cut to the F chase, problems are going to occur, like the "You're not hearing me!" dance.

I guess I hear this. It often seems to me that, with NTPs especially, logic is secondary to the desire for a) originality b) a good argument and c) humour. In other words, it frequently seems to me that NTPs tend to pick which side of an argument they'll weigh in on somewhat arbitrarily, and could easily turn on a dime to argue the other side with total equanimity and equal (apparent?) logic. Which means I don't feel overwhelmingly compelled to take their logic at face value, and can look for why they're saying what they're saying outside of what they've said. This doesn't apply so much to NTJs though. Especially a and c. In looking for why they say what they say, I tend to look for which values are at issue. Which I guess is playing the F card. But I do so very tentatively, with full awareness that I may be misunderstanding the point. I would certainly never presume to tell anyone what they're feeling, including NTs.* Actually, I've imputed motives (and, by implication, emotions) to one NT in the past on this forum, but that was on the basis of additional information which was unavailable to the rest of the forum, and only when I felt that the NT in question was intentionally misrepresenting himself.

NFPs shooting their mouth off about what I feel doesn't seem that difficult to deal with so far.

?




* edit: Actually I tell a lie - I've imputed motives (and, by implication, emotions) to one NT in the past on this forum, but that was on the basis of additional information which was unavailable to the rest of the forum, and only when I felt that the NT in question was intentionally misrepresenting himself.

 

[jenocyde]

1)

Puppy, I don't know... I'm just saying that I have never presumed to know what someone was thinking or feeling before. And I have never been told what I am feeling and had that assessment been correct.

A lot of it is also the fact that it seems people are just looking for emotions to have something to talk about. I don't know if I'm explaining this correctly, but it seems with my girlfriends, fun is talking about things that bother you? Trying to evoke an emotional response or something...? Is this your way of bonding? I don't really understand (and don't presume to ). If something is bothering me, I'll talk about it with whomever is physically closest to me at that moment (but this does not mean that we are now "best friends", ok?). But once I think it through, it's over. So when you see me every day, you don't need to keep asking me if I'm fine. Because I am. Trust me, I would know.

Whatever - there are things about me that annoy you guys too, so it's a give and take. But the question was asked, so...

 

[Salomé]

I guess I hear this. It often seems to me that, with NTPs especially, logic is secondary to the desire for a) originality b) a good argument and c) humour. In other words, it frequently seems to me that NTPs tend to pick which side of an argument they'll weigh in on somewhat arbitrarily, and could easily turn on a dime to argue the other side with total equanimity and equal (apparent?) logic. Which means I don't feel overwhelmingly compelled to take their logic at face value, and can look for why they're saying what they're saying outside of what they've said. This doesn't apply so much to NTJs though. Especially a and c.

All you've proved here is that you don't really understand logic, let alone those NTPs whose motives you believe yourself to be an expert on..

 

[JivinJeffJones]

whose motives you believe yourself to be an expert on..

Where did you get that from?

Edit: actually, where did you get the first bit from as well?

 

[Salomé]

^see the first part of your post, quoted.

 

[jenocyde]

I guess I hear this. It often seems to me that, with NTPs especially, logic is secondary to the desire for a) originality b) a good argument and c) humour. In other words, it frequently seems to me that NTPs tend to pick which side of an argument they'll weigh in on somewhat arbitrarily, and could easily turn on a dime to argue the other side with total equanimity and equal (apparent?) logic. Which means I don't feel overwhelmingly compelled to take their logic at face value, and can look for why they're saying what they're saying outside of what they've said. This doesn't apply so much to NTJs though. Especially a and c.



?

About the humor - I don't try and make a situation humorous, I just see humor in almost all situations and express it. I know it's inappropriate at times and I've been trying to tone it down.

I don't think I care more about being original than anyone else. I just do what I want and don't really have a motivation behind it. If I throw on a plaid shirt and striped skirt, it's because they were the only clean things I found on the floor this morning, not because I'm trying to stand out.

However, I can totally see why you would be annoyed by the switching sides thing - but it's not for shits and giggles, or because I feel like being an asshole. It's because I really want to come to the truth.

There are 3 sides to every story: side A, side B and then The Truth. I can (and do) argue whatever side makes sense to me in that moment. But it's because I am trying to learn more, not to assert anything. This is how I form opinions. Let's pretend there is a war between A and B. I may be leaning toward A, but something is off and I don't know what. So I will visualize being in the shoes of B and try to think of every argument I could possibly have against A. If A's reason for war can hold up to that scrutiny, then I know that supporting A is a valid choice. But wait - then I switch sides again and scrutinize B's side from A's perspective to see if there's a hint of validity. And back and forth until each argument is validated or refuted. This is why it's so hard for me to come to a decision about anything. I can legitimately see that the other side may have a point. But if I actually do arrive at some kind of decision, it's because I've scrutinized the issue so thoroughly (for years, sometimes). And then I am a 100% full, unwaivering supporter and any opponent with surely face my Fe of death (but these issues are few and far between).

I know my friends don't like it when I do this to situations in their personal lives. They expect me to just console and not question or even indicate that they may have played a role in whatever drama we're talking about. But much like you can't help wondering what I'm feeling, I can't help but wondering what the real truth is. If you come to me with a problem, I can't help but try to figure it out. I couldn't stop it if I tried, but I've learned to stop doing it out loud. So, yeah, we're just as annoying too.


EDIT: this is why it annoys me when someone asserts something offhandedly but has no proof or reason. When I'm serious about something and have gathered facts and figures - you can't just tell me "but it doesn't 'sit' well with me", or it doesn't "feel right". I want to know exactly why you've made that assertion. I am not trying to refute you, I'm trying to learn from you (or share the truth with you).

 

[JivinJeffJones]

^see the first part of your post, quoted.

I've done so, and nowhere in that extremely qualified post do I see a claim to expertise.

 

[Unique]

Her: "You're an ass"

Me: "You love it"

Use the T my friend, use it well.

 

[Tigerlily]

Her: "You're an ass"

Me: "You love it"

Use the T my friend, use it well.

 

[sculpting]

Well, I can't account for the failure of your imagination.
I don't think anyone on this website would profess to understand me, or even be interested in so doing. I was merely pointing out the difference between knowledge and understanding. I'm starting to wonder if it is possible to have anything more than a superficial understanding between NTs and NFs. Our world views and priorities seem so different...

Agreed. It is harder to connect for me to those with Ti, aka INTPs and ENTPs. Possible, but takes a lot more out of me than with NTJs for instance. And yes...maybe shortwiring the system is one of the main mistakes of F's, now that you mention it.

oh, this shortwiring, hmmm, i do that. yikes. one more thing to watch out for. I think we have an advantage with NTJs as we can dive in with Fi and our baby Te and sort of "hook" with them a little better. I think with ENTPs there is much Fe-Fi confusion at play, and with INTPs it's just a different universe.

Puppy, I don't know... I'm just saying that I have never presumed to know what someone was thinking or feeling before. And I have never been told what I am feeling and had that assessment been correct.

A lot of it is also the fact that it seems people are just looking for emotions to have something to talk about. I don't know if I'm explaining this correctly, but it seems with my girlfriends, fun is talking about things that bother you? Trying to evoke an emotional response or something...? Is this your way of bonding? I don't really understand (and don't presume to ). If something is bothering me, I'll talk about it with whomever is physically closest to me at that moment (but this does not mean that we are now "best friends", ok?). But once I think it through, it's over. So when you see me every day, you don't need to keep asking me if I'm fine. Because I am. Trust me, I would know.

I think this is how we overcome the problem-we verbalize and analyze with others until we work through the issues. It could be an EF thing. It will come up again multiple times as we ruminate over all the different pieces of the problem. Fi seems to "ocsillate" and it can take awhile for the "waves" set in motion by an emotional event to finally cease.

Funny, about the first part. ENTPs-at least the ones I have met IRL- love to watch people in a very Ti intense sort of way. So i asked my bf what is it she is doing when she watches. She said she studies what they do, tries to understand why they do it, to predict what they will do next. It doesnt involve how they feel but it does involve figuring out motivation. once she understand them she can use Fe to keep things under control to some extent. so she said when I poke her emo insides it "feels" like I am trying to do this same thing to her to control her in some way-even though mine is an Ne-Fi flavored inquiry. Not sure at all how universal this is though. N=1

NFPs shooting their mouth off about what I feel doesn't seem that difficult to deal with so far.

Famous last words maybe.

just give me time.

 

[jenocyde]

I think this is how we overcome the problem-we verbalize and analyze with others until we work through the issues.

But usually there is no problem to overcome. Whenever my friends invite me over for some wine and "to talk", I bristle knowing that this will be yet another night of looking for problems, or rehashing the ones we've already talked about and solved.

Funny, about the first part. ENTPs-at least the ones I have met IRL- love to watch people in a very Ti intense sort of way.

Interesting. I am observant in an Ne sort of way. I just absorb and collect, but I don't come to judgments or conclusions - I'm not even usually aware of the person. The pieces just circle about in my subconscious mind to be drawn on later for inspiration, imagination or whatever.

 

[sculpting]

EDIT: this is why it annoys me when someone asserts something offhandedly but has no proof or reason. When I'm serious about something and have gathered facts and figures - you can't just tell me "but it doesn't 'sit' well with me", or it doesn't "feel right". I want to know exactly why you've made that assertion. I am not trying to refute you, I'm trying to learn from you (or share the truth with you).

okay so wait-This was in my brain all yesterday as I was playing texting with an entp. He would make Ne-Ti logical connections which I would promptly scramble with Ne-Fi insanity to lead us off in a new direction. He would then Ne-Ti connect the new pieces and I would scramble again.

Ti is pure logic. It presents facts to facts to facts for Ne to connect. They can be really clever and witty and fun, but it's factual. Can you make a Ne connection without the fact????

Fi is-well I dont know what it is-but not logical. It presents feelings, subtlties, shades of nuance for Ne to connect. pieces, parts of fluffy stuff that Ne ties together. With people it seems to present holistic stuff for Ne to connect. It skips over walls, boundaries and isnt "constrained " by logical barriers.

So Ne-Fi may figure stuff out that Ne-Ti can't?? I see this practically in troubleshooting the scientific instrument I work on. Given a problem I am way, way up high and I just sort of "feel" around until I find the piece that seems a little out of joint. Then I point to it and the problem is there. I am much better at troublshooting than most NTs for this reason.

 

[Salomé]

I've done so, and nowhere in that extremely qualified post do I see a claim to expertise.

Expert enough to judge and dismiss their motivation for engaging in debate nonetheless. Perhaps you would do better to ask questions, than pass judgement, if understanding is what you truly seek.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

About the humor - I don't try and make a situation humorous, I just see humor in almost all situations and express it. I know it's inappropriate at times and I've been trying to tone it down.

Why tone it down?

I don't think I care more about being original than anyone else. I just do what I want and don't really have a motivation behind it. If I throw on a plaid shirt and striped skirt, it's because they were the only clean things I found on the floor this morning, not because I'm trying to stand out.

I wouldn't equate a desire for originality with "trying to stand out", if that's what you're doing. I guess when I speak of originality in an argument, I'm talking about putting forward a new perspective.

However, I can totally see why you would be annoyed by the switching sides thing - but it's not for shits and giggles, or because I feel like being an asshole. It's because I really want to come to the truth.

Who said I'm annoyed by it? I do it too. I think it's more an NP thing than an NT thing. But given the NTP propensity for playing devil's advocate, I'm less inclined to think they're convinced about what they're saying than with an NTJ. Exploratory positions, I call it.

EDIT: this is why it annoys me when someone asserts something offhandedly but has no proof or reason. When I'm serious about something and have gathered facts and figures - you can't just tell me "but it doesn't 'sit' well with me", or it doesn't "feel right". I want to know exactly why you've made that assertion. I am not trying to refute you, I'm trying to learn from you (or share the truth with you).

I can't remember the last time I said that either of those things, but sometimes when I hold a view (for or against) it can take me a while to identify and trace the logic/values which has led me to that position. That doesn't mean I can't or that it's arbitrary.