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  1. #81
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    But usually there is no problem to overcome. Whenever my friends invite me over for some wine and "to talk", I bristle knowing that this will be yet another night of looking for problems, or rehashing the ones we've already talked about and solved. .
    okay-so if it's thier problem then perhaps they never finished solving it-so for them Fi just keeps on cycling? However its is yours then they make the mistake of assuming you are like them and need to rehash. That would be annoying.


    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Interesting. I am observant in an Ne sort of way. I just absorb and collect, but I don't come to judgments or conclusions - I'm not even usually aware of the person. The pieces just circle about in my subconscious mind to be drawn on later for inspiration, imagination or whatever.
    Ne. It is some crazee shit. Anyways N=1 so I need to watch more and think more on this. You can watch thier faces as they swap from Ne to Ti, but I should go find some more to pester and brain pick.

  2. #82
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    okay so wait-This was in my brain all yesterday as I was playing texting with an entp. He would make Ne-Ti logical connections which I would promptly scramble with Ne-Fi insanity to lead us off in a new direction. He would then Ne-Ti connect the new pieces and I would scramble again.

    Ti is pure logic. It presents facts to facts to facts for Ne to connect. They can be really clever and witty and fun, but it's factual. Can you make a Ne connection without the fact????

    Fi is-well I dont know what it is-but not logical. It presents feelings, subtlties, shades of nuance for Ne to connect. pieces, parts of fluffy stuff that Ne ties together. With people it seems to present holistic stuff for Ne to connect. It skips over walls, boundaries and isnt "constrained " by logical barriers.

    So Ne-Fi may figure stuff out that Ne-Ti can't?? I see this practically in troubleshooting the scientific instrument I work on. Given a problem I am way, way up high and I just sort of "feel" around until I find the piece that seems a little out of joint. Then I point to it and the problem is there. I am much better at troublshooting than most NTs for this reason.
    I'm sorry Puppy, I have no idea what you are talking about. Really, I don't understand - can you clarify?

    I think what you're getting at is what I wrote in that 'N and T go together thread' yesterday, but I can't be certain. If so, I have to say that my Ne feeds the Ti, not the other way around... My Ti, or your Fi, is the Ne filter.

  3. #83
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    Expert enough to judge and dismiss their motivation for engaging in debate nonetheless. Perhaps you would do better to ask questions, than pass judgement, if understanding is what you truly seek.
    I think you need to reread my post.

  4. #84
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    I can't remember the last time I said that either of those things, but sometimes when I hold a view (for or against) it can take me a while to identify and trace the logic/values which has led me to that position. That doesn't mean I can't or that it's arbitrary.
    does Logic=values in a debate? Are both equally valid ways of argument and discussion?

  5. #85
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    does Logic=values in a debate? Are both equally valid ways of argument and discussion?
    No, I meant logic or values, though I don't think they're mutually exclusive.

  6. #86
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    If you're really that interested, perhaps you should... live a little? You know, go out and get to know them? Random internet strangers won't ever give you satisfactory answers, they can help, but the rest is up to you. You should experience AND analyze things.
    If you really are interested, that is.

    Why not visiting a party, where you can observe NFs and develop your communication skills with them? (I don't know where exactly you live, but I'm truly in love with croatian landscapes - it's summer, and the sea is propably close to your location, you should make the best of this huge advantage)
    The thing is that I am not that much isolated it is just that I am not really close to anyone.

    Also it is wise to gather some of the basic data first and then start acting.
    (at least that is how I do things)


    Btw people have noticed that I am not myself lately. What is understandable.
    My mother even said to me that I am finally starting to show the first signs that I will go into a puberty. (about a decade too late)






    Ok I will be more direct from this point.

    NFs, do you have problem with the concept/scenario that someone defends position which he/she does not support?

    Can you also explain your opinion about this?

  7. #87
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    does Logic=values in a debate? Are both equally valid ways of argument and discussion?
    Precisely. He's confusing logic with rationalization.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #88
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I'm sorry Puppy, I have no idea what you are talking about. Really, I don't understand - can you clarify?

    I think what you're getting at is what I wrote in that 'N and T go together thread' yesterday, but I can't be certain. If so, I have to say that my Ne feeds the Ti, not the other way around... My Ti, or your Fi, is the Ne filter.
    I need to go read that thread, however Ne sucks in info constantly correct? It perceives potentials all around the enviornment.

    However could what Ne chooses to perceive and feed into the brain be determined somewhat by Ti or Fi? In nueroscience there are all types of studies that show your brain is primed to pay attention to things you are already interested in. If I am Fi, I am interestd in subtle behavorial things, so will Ne be primed to pick those perceptions up over more logical facts?

  9. #89
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    Precisely. He's confusing logic with rationalization.
    At times, but what I'm trying to say is that the values I hold are (to me) logical. If they're illogical then the cognitive dissonance prompts me to ditch them, sooner or later. But if that's the pigeon-hole you want to put me in, go ahead.

  10. #90
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    Precisely. He's confusing logic with rationalization.
    sorry I didnt mean logic and values were the same but rather of equal importance in an argument/debate/discussion.

    I think the difference is what type of problem are you trying to solve/debate/analyze.

    If I need to solve a problem that involves pure logic than logic is by far the best tool.

    If I need to solve a problem that involves a combination of applying values and logic, thats where things get really messy.

    people problems can be very difficult to work through using pure logic. The value side is not clean or neat but is essential to consider even though it is very muddy.

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