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  1. #71
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    ^see the first part of your post, quoted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #72
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    I guess I hear this. It often seems to me that, with NTPs especially, logic is secondary to the desire for a) originality b) a good argument and c) humour. In other words, it frequently seems to me that NTPs tend to pick which side of an argument they'll weigh in on somewhat arbitrarily, and could easily turn on a dime to argue the other side with total equanimity and equal (apparent?) logic. Which means I don't feel overwhelmingly compelled to take their logic at face value, and can look for why they're saying what they're saying outside of what they've said. This doesn't apply so much to NTJs though. Especially a and c.



    ?
    About the humor - I don't try and make a situation humorous, I just see humor in almost all situations and express it. I know it's inappropriate at times and I've been trying to tone it down.

    I don't think I care more about being original than anyone else. I just do what I want and don't really have a motivation behind it. If I throw on a plaid shirt and striped skirt, it's because they were the only clean things I found on the floor this morning, not because I'm trying to stand out.

    However, I can totally see why you would be annoyed by the switching sides thing - but it's not for shits and giggles, or because I feel like being an asshole. It's because I really want to come to the truth.

    There are 3 sides to every story: side A, side B and then The Truth. I can (and do) argue whatever side makes sense to me in that moment. But it's because I am trying to learn more, not to assert anything. This is how I form opinions. Let's pretend there is a war between A and B. I may be leaning toward A, but something is off and I don't know what. So I will visualize being in the shoes of B and try to think of every argument I could possibly have against A. If A's reason for war can hold up to that scrutiny, then I know that supporting A is a valid choice. But wait - then I switch sides again and scrutinize B's side from A's perspective to see if there's a hint of validity. And back and forth until each argument is validated or refuted. This is why it's so hard for me to come to a decision about anything. I can legitimately see that the other side may have a point. But if I actually do arrive at some kind of decision, it's because I've scrutinized the issue so thoroughly (for years, sometimes). And then I am a 100% full, unwaivering supporter and any opponent with surely face my Fe of death (but these issues are few and far between).

    I know my friends don't like it when I do this to situations in their personal lives. They expect me to just console and not question or even indicate that they may have played a role in whatever drama we're talking about. But much like you can't help wondering what I'm feeling, I can't help but wondering what the real truth is. If you come to me with a problem, I can't help but try to figure it out. I couldn't stop it if I tried, but I've learned to stop doing it out loud. So, yeah, we're just as annoying too.


    EDIT: this is why it annoys me when someone asserts something offhandedly but has no proof or reason. When I'm serious about something and have gathered facts and figures - you can't just tell me "but it doesn't 'sit' well with me", or it doesn't "feel right". I want to know exactly why you've made that assertion. I am not trying to refute you, I'm trying to learn from you (or share the truth with you).

  3. #73
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    ^see the first part of your post, quoted.
    I've done so, and nowhere in that extremely qualified post do I see a claim to expertise.

  4. #74
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    Her: "You're an ass"

    Me: "You love it"

    Use the T my friend, use it well.

  5. #75
    unscannable Tigerlily's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unique View Post
    Her: "You're an ass"

    Me: "You love it"

    Use the T my friend, use it well.
    Time is a delicate mistress.

  6. #76
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    Well, I can't account for the failure of your imagination.
    I don't think anyone on this website would profess to understand me, or even be interested in so doing. I was merely pointing out the difference between knowledge and understanding. I'm starting to wonder if it is possible to have anything more than a superficial understanding between NTs and NFs. Our world views and priorities seem so different...

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Agreed. It is harder to connect for me to those with Ti, aka INTPs and ENTPs. Possible, but takes a lot more out of me than with NTJs for instance. And yes...maybe shortwiring the system is one of the main mistakes of F's, now that you mention it.
    oh, this shortwiring, hmmm, i do that. yikes. one more thing to watch out for. I think we have an advantage with NTJs as we can dive in with Fi and our baby Te and sort of "hook" with them a little better. I think with ENTPs there is much Fe-Fi confusion at play, and with INTPs it's just a different universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Puppy, I don't know... I'm just saying that I have never presumed to know what someone was thinking or feeling before. And I have never been told what I am feeling and had that assessment been correct.

    A lot of it is also the fact that it seems people are just looking for emotions to have something to talk about. I don't know if I'm explaining this correctly, but it seems with my girlfriends, fun is talking about things that bother you? Trying to evoke an emotional response or something...? Is this your way of bonding? I don't really understand (and don't presume to ). If something is bothering me, I'll talk about it with whomever is physically closest to me at that moment (but this does not mean that we are now "best friends", ok?). But once I think it through, it's over. So when you see me every day, you don't need to keep asking me if I'm fine. Because I am. Trust me, I would know.
    I think this is how we overcome the problem-we verbalize and analyze with others until we work through the issues. It could be an EF thing. It will come up again multiple times as we ruminate over all the different pieces of the problem. Fi seems to "ocsillate" and it can take awhile for the "waves" set in motion by an emotional event to finally cease.

    Funny, about the first part. ENTPs-at least the ones I have met IRL- love to watch people in a very Ti intense sort of way. So i asked my bf what is it she is doing when she watches. She said she studies what they do, tries to understand why they do it, to predict what they will do next. It doesnt involve how they feel but it does involve figuring out motivation. once she understand them she can use Fe to keep things under control to some extent. so she said when I poke her emo insides it "feels" like I am trying to do this same thing to her to control her in some way-even though mine is an Ne-Fi flavored inquiry. Not sure at all how universal this is though. N=1


    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    NFPs shooting their mouth off about what I feel doesn't seem that difficult to deal with so far.

    Famous last words maybe.
    just give me time.

  7. #77
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    I think this is how we overcome the problem-we verbalize and analyze with others until we work through the issues.
    But usually there is no problem to overcome. Whenever my friends invite me over for some wine and "to talk", I bristle knowing that this will be yet another night of looking for problems, or rehashing the ones we've already talked about and solved.

    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    Funny, about the first part. ENTPs-at least the ones I have met IRL- love to watch people in a very Ti intense sort of way.
    Interesting. I am observant in an Ne sort of way. I just absorb and collect, but I don't come to judgments or conclusions - I'm not even usually aware of the person. The pieces just circle about in my subconscious mind to be drawn on later for inspiration, imagination or whatever.

  8. #78
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    EDIT: this is why it annoys me when someone asserts something offhandedly but has no proof or reason. When I'm serious about something and have gathered facts and figures - you can't just tell me "but it doesn't 'sit' well with me", or it doesn't "feel right". I want to know exactly why you've made that assertion. I am not trying to refute you, I'm trying to learn from you (or share the truth with you).
    okay so wait-This was in my brain all yesterday as I was playing texting with an entp. He would make Ne-Ti logical connections which I would promptly scramble with Ne-Fi insanity to lead us off in a new direction. He would then Ne-Ti connect the new pieces and I would scramble again.

    Ti is pure logic. It presents facts to facts to facts for Ne to connect. They can be really clever and witty and fun, but it's factual. Can you make a Ne connection without the fact????

    Fi is-well I dont know what it is-but not logical. It presents feelings, subtlties, shades of nuance for Ne to connect. pieces, parts of fluffy stuff that Ne ties together. With people it seems to present holistic stuff for Ne to connect. It skips over walls, boundaries and isnt "constrained " by logical barriers.

    So Ne-Fi may figure stuff out that Ne-Ti can't?? I see this practically in troubleshooting the scientific instrument I work on. Given a problem I am way, way up high and I just sort of "feel" around until I find the piece that seems a little out of joint. Then I point to it and the problem is there. I am much better at troublshooting than most NTs for this reason.

  9. #79
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    I've done so, and nowhere in that extremely qualified post do I see a claim to expertise.
    Expert enough to judge and dismiss their motivation for engaging in debate nonetheless. Perhaps you would do better to ask questions, than pass judgement, if understanding is what you truly seek.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #80
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    About the humor - I don't try and make a situation humorous, I just see humor in almost all situations and express it. I know it's inappropriate at times and I've been trying to tone it down.
    Why tone it down?

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I don't think I care more about being original than anyone else. I just do what I want and don't really have a motivation behind it. If I throw on a plaid shirt and striped skirt, it's because they were the only clean things I found on the floor this morning, not because I'm trying to stand out.
    I wouldn't equate a desire for originality with "trying to stand out", if that's what you're doing. I guess when I speak of originality in an argument, I'm talking about putting forward a new perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    However, I can totally see why you would be annoyed by the switching sides thing - but it's not for shits and giggles, or because I feel like being an asshole. It's because I really want to come to the truth.
    Who said I'm annoyed by it? I do it too. I think it's more an NP thing than an NT thing. But given the NTP propensity for playing devil's advocate, I'm less inclined to think they're convinced about what they're saying than with an NTJ. Exploratory positions, I call it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    EDIT: this is why it annoys me when someone asserts something offhandedly but has no proof or reason. When I'm serious about something and have gathered facts and figures - you can't just tell me "but it doesn't 'sit' well with me", or it doesn't "feel right". I want to know exactly why you've made that assertion. I am not trying to refute you, I'm trying to learn from you (or share the truth with you).
    I can't remember the last time I said that either of those things, but sometimes when I hold a view (for or against) it can take me a while to identify and trace the logic/values which has led me to that position. That doesn't mean I can't or that it's arbitrary.

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