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  1. #61
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I think there's a tendency for some people to project their feelings onto me because that's what they would feel if they were in my shoes. And when I assert that I do not feel that way at all, I am told that I am in denial or out of touch with my emotions.
    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    bingo. or covering up/lying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge View Post
    yes, to me it seems like they are inventing my emotions and prosecuting me for them.

    the type to understand you the best has got to be your own.
    1) do you guys think you may be showing physiological signs of an emotional response but be unaware you are doing so? Ie you dont know what you are feeling exactly? So the NF picks it up subtle cues, tries to describe it, then screws up as you guys are still not even aware of exactly what is going on yourselves? (Just a Q I really have no idea, so no offense please)

    2) Is it this mistaken perception, or the following persecution that is most offensive? (persecution?? what is that exactly, as thats a crazy strong word, and I hope I'd never do that)

    3) Or is that maybe they saw and tried to describe what you were projecting outwards before you had a chance to understand it yourself? And thus it is the presumption that they understand that is so offensive, when you do not understand quite yet.

    4) does it bother you more that they try and descibe your thoughts, your feelings, or your motivations?

    5) Do you find this gets used as tool against you when in conflict with an NF? And then you are assigned feelings, motivations and such which are incorrect. (and on that note, potentially later, after analysis, could some of it have been correct?)

    6) is part of the offense that someone would even try and understand your emotions? Ie its none of our business in the first place?

    Again I have no idea, so no offense please, just trying to scope out the problem better

  2. #62
    unscannable Tigerlily's Avatar
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    I don't completely understand NT's I don't know but I do understand my NT husband. sometimes he says things that "hurt" my feelings and when we first were married I'd be in tears but now I just tell him to stfu and he's fine with that.
    Time is a delicate mistress.

  3. #63
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    1) do you guys think you may be showing physiological signs of an emotional response but be unaware you are doing so? Ie you dont know what you are feeling exactly? So the NF picks it up subtle cues, tries to describe it, then screws up as you guys are still not even aware of exactly what is going on yourselves? (Just a Q I really have no idea, so no offense please)

    2) Is it this mistaken perception, or the following persecution that is most offensive? (persecution?? what is that exactly, as thats a crazy strong word, and I hope I'd never do that)
    Depends which NF and how well versed they are in T speak, I guess.

    Because first, if we--I, they, whatever, me and other NTs--are trying to do anything, it's going through T first, and if that T gets ignored to cut to the F chase, problems are going to occur, like the "You're not hearing me!" dance.

    And Fe/Fi screw-ups make it that much worse.

    Like, if I speak about anything at all, even feelings, it's going to come out sounding like thinking about what's true outside of myself, just because my natural public language is Te, and feeling is going to start to rise up behind those words, driving them. So if I'm dealing with an NFJ, we're screwed, basically. It'll be a competition for dominance, who gets to win the final say in "what's really happening right now."

    NFPs shooting their mouth off about what I feel doesn't seem that difficult to deal with so far.

    Famous last words maybe.

  4. #64
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    I find it difficult to imagine any NFs have ever suggested they do. Certainly not on this website.
    Well, I can't account for the failure of your imagination.
    I don't think anyone on this website would profess to understand me, or even be interested in so doing. I was merely pointing out the difference between knowledge and understanding. I'm starting to wonder if it is possible to have anything more than a superficial understanding between NTs and NFs. Our world views and priorities seem so different...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    You're crazy.
    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    yeah um, I meant CRAZY AWESOME
    Good save. Yeah, thanks

  6. #66
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Depends which NF and how well versed they are in T speak, I guess.

    Because first, if we--I, they, whatever, me and other NTs--are trying to do anything, it's going through T first, and if that T gets ignored to cut to the F chase, problems are going to occur, like the "You're not hearing me!" dance.

    And Fe/Fi screw-ups make it that much worse.

    Like, if I speak about anything at all, even feelings, it's going to come out sounding like thinking about what's true outside of myself, just because my natural public language is Te, and feeling is going to start to rise up behind those words, driving them. So if I'm dealing with an NFJ, we're screwed, basically. It'll be a competition for dominance, who gets to win the final say in "what's really happening right now."

    NFPs shooting their mouth off about what I feel doesn't seem that difficult to deal with so far.

    Famous last words maybe.
    Agreed. It is harder to connect for me to those with Ti, aka INTPs and ENTPs. Possible, but takes a lot more out of me than with NTJs for instance. And yes...maybe shortwiring the system is one of the main mistakes of F's, now that you mention it. It feels odd to involve T when talking about emotions. I only use T afterwards to analyze them and see how they are relevant to the situation that caused them. Also, if I'm tired or impatient, or otherwise not feeling optimal, it's very tempting to cut through it all and just get to the bloody point, which in this case is that stupid flickering light on my emotional radar

    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    Well, I can't account for the failure of your imagination.
    I don't think anyone on this website would profess to understand me, or even be interested in so doing. I was merely pointing out the difference between knowledge and understanding. I'm starting to wonder if it is possible to have anything more than a superficial understanding between NTs and NFs. Our world views and priorities seem so different...
    It is, but only upto certain point, ime. You can get beneath the surface though. And you can get quite deep. But you'll never get there completely. On the other hand...I think that's part of the attraction between us. There will always be a bit of mystery
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  7. #67
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Because first, if we--I, they, whatever, me and other NTs--are trying to do anything, it's going through T first, and if that T gets ignored to cut to the F chase, problems are going to occur, like the "You're not hearing me!" dance.
    I guess I hear this. It often seems to me that, with NTPs especially, logic is secondary to the desire for a) originality b) a good argument and c) humour. In other words, it frequently seems to me that NTPs tend to pick which side of an argument they'll weigh in on somewhat arbitrarily, and could easily turn on a dime to argue the other side with total equanimity and equal (apparent?) logic. Which means I don't feel overwhelmingly compelled to take their logic at face value, and can look for why they're saying what they're saying outside of what they've said. This doesn't apply so much to NTJs though. Especially a and c. In looking for why they say what they say, I tend to look for which values are at issue. Which I guess is playing the F card. But I do so very tentatively, with full awareness that I may be misunderstanding the point. I would certainly never presume to tell anyone what they're feeling, including NTs.* Actually, I've imputed motives (and, by implication, emotions) to one NT in the past on this forum, but that was on the basis of additional information which was unavailable to the rest of the forum, and only when I felt that the NT in question was intentionally misrepresenting himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    NFPs shooting their mouth off about what I feel doesn't seem that difficult to deal with so far.
    ?




    * edit: Actually I tell a lie - I've imputed motives (and, by implication, emotions) to one NT in the past on this forum, but that was on the basis of additional information which was unavailable to the rest of the forum, and only when I felt that the NT in question was intentionally misrepresenting himself.

  8. #68
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    1)
    Puppy, I don't know... I'm just saying that I have never presumed to know what someone was thinking or feeling before. And I have never been told what I am feeling and had that assessment been correct.

    A lot of it is also the fact that it seems people are just looking for emotions to have something to talk about. I don't know if I'm explaining this correctly, but it seems with my girlfriends, fun is talking about things that bother you? Trying to evoke an emotional response or something...? Is this your way of bonding? I don't really understand (and don't presume to ). If something is bothering me, I'll talk about it with whomever is physically closest to me at that moment (but this does not mean that we are now "best friends", ok?). But once I think it through, it's over. So when you see me every day, you don't need to keep asking me if I'm fine. Because I am. Trust me, I would know.

    Whatever - there are things about me that annoy you guys too, so it's a give and take. But the question was asked, so...

  9. #69
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    I guess I hear this. It often seems to me that, with NTPs especially, logic is secondary to the desire for a) originality b) a good argument and c) humour. In other words, it frequently seems to me that NTPs tend to pick which side of an argument they'll weigh in on somewhat arbitrarily, and could easily turn on a dime to argue the other side with total equanimity and equal (apparent?) logic. Which means I don't feel overwhelmingly compelled to take their logic at face value, and can look for why they're saying what they're saying outside of what they've said. This doesn't apply so much to NTJs though. Especially a and c.
    All you've proved here is that you don't really understand logic, let alone those NTPs whose motives you believe yourself to be an expert on..
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #70
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    whose motives you believe yourself to be an expert on..
    Where did you get that from?

    Edit: actually, where did you get the first bit from as well?

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